The Great Universal Health Care Debate w/Poll (note: it just passed both houses)

[Steve Wilkins]

So the public option is dead, and yet Republicans still want to tank this plan over the individual mandate - the central feature of Mitt Romney's Massachusetts health care reform,

You mean the STATE run health care plan the state of MA put in place? If the state of Idaho wants to do the same thing, more power to em. The federal government has no business getting involved in this stuff, especially given that insurance plans can't be purchased across state lines (you know, that whole interstate commerce thing of the Commerce Clause).

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Mandated medical coverage began as a Republican idea, not a Democratic one.

Surely, you're not using Teddy Roosevelt to say that this is a good idea. Yeah, he was a Republican, but he was also a staunch Progressive (liberal).

Also, are folks required to participate in Social Security in this country?

Yes, unfortunately, with a couple exceptions.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Much like it dictates that all males sign up for the Selective Service, that you pay taxes on things that you don't use and pay into Social Security.

Of course, of course. That makes it all right. One thing begets another, and that begets another, and that begets another, and so forth.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Who do you think pays for the trauma care for the idiot motorcyclist that busts his head open doing stunts, and has no insurance to pay for it. Requiring him to get insurance or pay a fine ensures that he would help pay for his costs, instead of you and I shouldering the entire cost now.

I have this crazy notion of holding people accountable. If a guys busts his head open and doesn't have insurance, then you hold him accountable for the care he receives, not the rest of the country before the fact.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

I thought the Navy had socialized medicine.

That's like saying the Navy has a socialized airline and cruise business.

 

[HercDriver]

Surely, you're not using Teddy Roosevelt to say that this is a good idea. Yeah, he was a Republican, but he was also a staunch Progressive (liberal).

Yes, unfortunately, with a couple exceptions.

Nope, not Teddy Roosevelt, I'm speaking of the Dole-Chaffee Bill (1993). Quite a few of the ideas contained in that bill are in the current Senate bill.

Dole-Chaffee Bill

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Nope, not Teddy Roosevelt, I'm speaking of the Dole-Chaffee Bill (1993). Quite a few of the ideas contained in that bill are in the current Senate bill.

Dole-Chaffee Bill

How'd that work out for em?

 

[HercDriver]

How'd that work out for em?

I dunno. I'm guessing the Republicans were outraged, both senators were branded socialists, demonstrations were held, and Dole quietly left the Senate in disgrace in 2003. And none of the folks who are up in arms about the current mandate signed onto the bill.

But I haven't checked Google to find out yet.

 

[HercDriver]

That's like saying the Navy has a socialized airline and cruise business.

How so? Isn't Tricare paid for/run by the government? Couldn't the Navy use all of the civilian docs in Norfolk, instead of having a Naval Hospital?

 

[Flash]

......Even if it is decided by this court to be Constitutional, does that really mean it is? On the other hand, maybe the Court might decide these cases to be unConstitutional. Again....doesn't mean it's right.

Yes, that is the law of the land, like it or not. You can't deny reality.

You keep thinking that.

Just stating the facts.

 

[SkywardET]

How so? Isn't Tricare paid for/run by the government? Couldn't the Navy use all of the civilian docs in Norfolk, instead of having a Naval Hospital?

Comparisons like this are unusable. TRICARE covers roughly 1% of the population and it is subsidized by 100% of the population. Or, using current federal budget revenue/expenditure metrics, roughly 60% of it is covered by taxes and 40% of it is covered by debt.

If all the people eligible for TRICARE were in a vacuum, and TRICARE funds had to come only from taxes of the people it services, would it have enough money? Factor in other uses for taxes such as roads, schools, etc., and the answer is very likely 'no'.

It is similar with Hawai'i, which is 'subsidized' indirectly by the citizens of the rest of the country and a bit of the world through tourism. Taxachusetts is the closest comparison, but it's ranked third in average family income.

 

[HercDriver]

Comparisons like this are unusable. TRICARE covers roughly 1% of the population and it is subsidized by 100% of the population. Or, using current federal budget revenue/expenditure metrics, roughly 60% of it is covered by taxes and 40% of it is covered by debt.

If all the people eligible for TRICARE were in a vacuum, and TRICARE funds had to come only from taxes of the people it services, would it have enough money? Factor in other uses for taxes such as roads, schools, etc., and the answer is very likely 'no'.

It is similar with Hawai'i, which is 'subsidized' indirectly by the citizens of the rest of the country and a bit of the world through tourism. Taxachusetts is the closest comparison, but it's ranked third in average family income.

Interesting, but you weren't addressing my point at all. Tricare is a gov't paid for/run program. Military medical is the same. Many folks on here kvetch about the evils of gov't involvement in healthcare as socialistic/unAmerican/etc., while reaping the benefits the same.

My only hope is folks who hate the gov't involvement in healthcare will refuse to use military medicine/Tricare for their family, and (hopefully) ensure their elderly parents do not use their Medicare, based on their principles. And maybe then the Navy will close down those hospitals in Norfolk I spoke of earlier, use civilian doctors, and the free-market principles of competition will finally be set free!
Amen.

 

[magnetfreezer]

Interesting, but you weren't addressing my point at all. Tricare is a gov't paid for/run program. Military medical is the same. Many folks on here kvetch about the evils of gov't involvement in healthcare as socialistic/unAmerican/etc., while reaping the benefits the same.

My only hope is folks who hate the gov't involvement in healthcare will refuse to use military medicine/Tricare for their family, and (hopefully) ensure their elderly parents do not use their Medicare, based on their principles. And maybe then the Navy will close down those hospitals in Norfolk I spoke of earlier, use civilian doctors, and the free-market principles of competition will finally be set free!
Amen.

Military medicine/Tricare are not public healthcare programs - they are compensation for the services rendered by military personnel as government employees, just as no one would call the $20K/yr a LCpl receives for clearing houses in Fallujah a welfare payment. In addition to being part of the compensation, it is an investment by the military - just as aircraft need maintenance, a squadron full of broken personnel won't be very mission effective. I'd rather not have my pilot be distracted by worries about his wife/kids healthcare either.

Healthcare for retired personnel is another form of compensation, especially important for the cases when injuries/illnesses were caused by the wear and tear of military service. Even in cases where they avoided service injuries, the retired servicemember has given the past 20 years to the government when they could likely have been earning more on the outside, establishing a career progression, etc. When 400 pound Joe and Jane Trailerpark have made great contributions to our security, I'll gladly support government healthcare for them.

 

[mmx1]

But the government doesn't just pay 3k to blue cross every month. It's a government-administered single-payer system; the same sort that critics allege would be so inefficient and wasteful by virtue of the government running it.

 

[exhelodrvr]

I wouldn't characterize miitary medicine as efficient.

Scaling that system up wouldn't work, because you couldn't get away with paying all the doctors what military doctors are paid.

I strongly suspect (based on what I have seen on the statements) that what Tricare pays the civilian doctors for the office visits, etc. would, if done on a much larger scale, not be acceptable for the majority of the civilian practices.