Couldn't have said it better
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The Great Debate (who should pay for school)
- Thread starter eddie
- Start date
Spekkio
He bowls overhand.
Again, you are implying that meeting the standards for a scholarship requires hard work. If I'm understanding your argument correctly, you're arguing that the 'benefit' of having to pay one's own way through college is not necessary because the person is proving themselves to be a hard worker. This is not the case for everyone. Case in point: I can probably count on both hands the number of hours I studied in my entire high school career, yet I graduated with 2 semesters worth of college credits from AP classes and went to SUNY Albany on scholarship. Oh, and if my HW didn't get done during class (which only happened rarely), then I just didn't do it. I could afford to lose the points and still get A's, and playing hockey after school was more important to me at the time. Most of my friends in high school had similar work ethics.
Point being, you can't look at someone's gpa and say 'oh, he's a hard worker so it's ok that he doesn't have to pay for college.'
And you assume it is easy for everyone. People and what they consider hard work varies from intellect to intellect just like physical labor varies from person to person. If you are gifted and find it easy, congratulations, that's your rite of an elite minority. But at the same time what about the people who aren't so gifted who make up the majority of the population?
The exception often proves the rule. Look around, do you think the millions of young kids filling community colleges or just not going to college because they couldn't afford it are in that position because, apparently, a lack of work ethics didn't cash in for them like it did for you? Have you ever actually been to a junior college and spoke to the people there seeking to transfer to a 4 year institution? The fact is if it is not for personal circumstances, they either aren't as gifted as you or didn't qualify competitively to where ever it is they want to go. This may come as a shock, but there are indeed kids out there who have to bust their ass in order to be considered for an education and they far out number your case. And times now more than ever are making it difficult to luck into a free ride. Are you endorsing the mentality that because person x made it without trying is how to get ahead of the pack if you are in the shoes of the multitude of people I'm referring to?
Spekkio
He bowls overhand.
You totally missed what I was saying, considering that I said about 2 posts ago that there are people who have mediocre grades and work their asses off for them. Also, junior colleges are filled by all types of people, not just shitbags. Some people may not want to go away to school. Others may be very undecided regarding their course of study and just want to take some core classes on the cheap. Some may have had good grades in high school but choked on the SATs. My point is that you're making some ridiculous assumptions about the entirety of the national college population that simply don't hold true. For someone to universally say that one must pay his own way through school to appreciate their education, and in the next breath say that people on scholarship are exempt by virtue of being extra-hard workers, is absurd.
I have also seen situations of people paying their way through college when loans did not make up the difference, and they didn't want to take a high interest privatized loan -- people who would have appreciated parental help and their education if they had financial assistance. They were miserable and often fell behind their peers because while their peers were working unpaid internships and making connections, they were flipping burgers or folding clothes for 30+ hours a week to make ends meet. Then there's the fact that this ultimately makes one's grades suffer, which puts them further behind, so what exactly is an individual gaining by doing this? That supposedly it will make them appreciate working twice as hard to always be a step behind?
However, the majority of people who are paying their own way through college take out loans, and those don't hit you until after you graduate.
It read entirely like you were saying getting a scholarship is easy because it was for you and that there are no barriers in place that add a difficult curve for others based off your example. Your example still reads like an exception to the reality of the situation.
I speak with confidence about Community College having gone to and graduating from one while meeting and seeing several people that attended and interacting with faculty. Yes there are many more reasons people attend CC. Did I not say "if it is not for personal circumstances, they either aren't as gifted as you or didn't qualify competitively to where ever it is they want to go." That doesn't make anyone a shitbag. That was your term not mine.
I didn't say having a scholarship is an exemption from hard work.
"People and what they consider hard work varies from intellect to intellect just like physical labor varies from person to person. If you are gifted and find it easy, congratulations, that's your rite of an elite minority. But at the same time what about the people who aren't so gifted who make up the majority of the population?" - me
I'm failing to see whats not true about this statement. I basically said some people are more talented/smarter/gifted than others, but they are a minority and their path won't apply to the majority.
What? You mean like me? I didn't flip burgers, but I worked retail and where ever else I could to make up th difference. I still remember taking evening tests, working overnight, getting 3 hours of sleep, and taking another test. I also busted my ass at the same time to be involved in just as many activities and opportunities as my peers who did have money for school. Graduated with a 3.8 to boot. In hindsight I'm glad my parents didn't pay a cent. I did things with my life I never thought possible because of it. You call it being miserable. Sure if you are complacent. I saw it as an opportunity to build character.
I'm going that route, too. I wanted an education and a commission and that's what I have. I'd pay double what I do and work twice as hard all over again if it mean keeping it. Thats just the kind of resolve I have given my experiences. You see it as a burden. In a way I can't deny that you are right. I see it as challenge worthy of keeping what I have. Again, a mentality I have having had to find my own way to pay for college.
I stand by the opinion that having college paid for by your parents won't get you the same character as paying your own way. At least by earning a scholarship, you are demonstrating self-reliance. How is having your parents pay for college demonstrating self-reliance?
I speak with confidence about Community College having gone to and graduating from one while meeting and seeing several people that attended and interacting with faculty. Yes there are many more reasons people attend CC. Did I not say "if it is not for personal circumstances, they either aren't as gifted as you or didn't qualify competitively to where ever it is they want to go." That doesn't make anyone a shitbag. That was your term not mine.
I didn't say having a scholarship is an exemption from hard work.
"People and what they consider hard work varies from intellect to intellect just like physical labor varies from person to person. If you are gifted and find it easy, congratulations, that's your rite of an elite minority. But at the same time what about the people who aren't so gifted who make up the majority of the population?" - me
I'm failing to see whats not true about this statement. I basically said some people are more talented/smarter/gifted than others, but they are a minority and their path won't apply to the majority.
What? You mean like me? I didn't flip burgers, but I worked retail and where ever else I could to make up th difference. I still remember taking evening tests, working overnight, getting 3 hours of sleep, and taking another test. I also busted my ass at the same time to be involved in just as many activities and opportunities as my peers who did have money for school. Graduated with a 3.8 to boot. In hindsight I'm glad my parents didn't pay a cent. I did things with my life I never thought possible because of it. You call it being miserable. Sure if you are complacent. I saw it as an opportunity to build character.
I'm going that route, too. I wanted an education and a commission and that's what I have. I'd pay double what I do and work twice as hard all over again if it mean keeping it. Thats just the kind of resolve I have given my experiences. You see it as a burden. In a way I can't deny that you are right. I see it as challenge worthy of keeping what I have. Again, a mentality I have having had to find my own way to pay for college.
I stand by the opinion that having college paid for by your parents won't get you the same character as paying your own way. At least by earning a scholarship, you are demonstrating self-reliance. How is having your parents pay for college demonstrating self-reliance?
Spekkio
He bowls overhand.
No. My example was a situation where someone can earn a scholarship without hard work. I have seen a lot of people do this, and some perform much better than me while doing it. While it's not the majority, it is not an exception.
You did use that line, and then you went on to discount that entire portion of the population to argue the same point.
Nor did I. You again completely misread that paragraph.
How is earning a scholarship demonstrating "self-reliance?" All it displays is that you got good grades, it doesn't say anything about how you got them. That has been my point overall.
Congrats. And what tangible benefit did doing this give you, besides an inflated sense of pride, that could not be gotten in another way had your parents helped out? If it did yield some sort of tangible benefit, how is someone on scholarship getting a full 8 hours of sleep at night because he doesn't need to work a full-time job to make ends meet also getting this benefit?
If you want to argue that paying your own way in college is valuable, fine. I will disagree with you, but at least you're coming from a consistently logical standpoint. But I stand by my assertion that making an exception for people on scholarships based on the assumption that they are harder working or more self-reliant is absurd.
:irked_125
Spekkio these two statements just show me you and I are two entirely different people; however, I'm honored to serve in an Officer Corps that can attract such diverse personalities. While I'm sure we are amusing the Airwarrior's posters and lurkers, lets agree to disagree.
I don't think they (or I, or anyone else regarding college and its "experiences") should be expected to do anything (any one way).
Best,
Eddie