The Call To Serve

[wink]

As a result, we disproportionately lose the less educated. If, as I suggested initially, we are drawing deep, as opposed to wide, we are creating something of a permanent "sacrificial class".

Well, assuming that the Army and USMC do lower their standards during times of war when difficult to recruit, you would still have to assume that those lower standards result in a less educated and more underprivileged Army and USMC than their civ cohort. I am guessing that I feel that is less the case than you. But more important is taking a look at who actually sacrifices. So maybe more poor folk enlisted during recent wars because others were not inclinded to and the lower standards cast a wider net. But that doesn't mean those people were more likely to become a casualty. But to go back to my point. It is all volunteer. They don't have to go into the military. They don't have to choose an MOS that is more likely to find them humping a pack in the Hindu Kush. And to expand on your point, would it be so bad that underprivileged people are more inclined to go military when it is generally a valuable experience that can better people in many ways? Clearly their service is a plus for society and it usually is a plus for them as individuals and society again, if it gets them advanced education, better job prospects and the stability of home ownership all before their peers back home.

I like your term "sacrificial class" but mostly reject it, as I understand your definition. I simply don't think income matters as to who bears the sacrifice. Clearly that is debatable. But I think it is important to expand the debate as I argued above. What does it say about our military and our society that it appears the back bone of our military is from one region of the US, tends to be religious, charitable, civic minded, conservative and from rural and small town America (remember we are talking about proportional representation) ? Only a very small percentage are joining purely because of personal finances. So what motivates those people to join out of proportion to others? Is it the Southern culture? Is it the Judeo Christian values learned by church goers? A political conservatives interest in preserving American from threats they perceive?

 

[squorch2]

Epistemic closure plus the "neatening" of wars.

 

[scoober78]

What does it say about our military and our society that it appears the back bone of our military is from one region of the US, tends to be religious, charitable, civic minded, conservative and from rural and small town America (remember we are talking about proportional representation) ?

Ultimately, I have to agree here...just looking at this in terms of economic "class" is myopic and misses the richer picture. It's just as important, arguably, to talk about why men are bearing the brunt of this burden...interesting to a point but limited without context.

 

[flaps]

one might ask if the military represents society as a whole. take a walk through new york (or a similar) city and observe the ethnic diversity. is this diversity similar to that of the military? i think not. i'm not prepared to say if this is a good or bad thing. but i suspect that much diversity in an average military outfit would be chaotic at best.

 

[wink]

How do you define and measure diversity? We all know how the military particular defines it. But does that go to the questions being kicked around here? Me, I think not. All that said. The military may not be as diverse in nationality, ethnicity and race as NYC. But it does come much closer to the nation as a whole, as defined by the military anyway.

 

[phrogpilot73]

not a day goes by that I wish I could remeber how to do a ELVA approach to a small boy in some shitdick little puddle in the Middle east.

Instrument approaches to a ship deck, coming soon to an HMLA near you...

 

[Hotdogs]

Instrument approaches to a ship deck, coming soon to an HMLA near you...

 

[KBayDog]

Yes. Oh yes.

And when you visit Mother, you might even finally figure out why we sent you to five BI sims and seven BI flights.

 

[VMO4]

I read with intrigue the diversity elements. From my time as enlisted in the Corps I remember three groups, ....a large group of southern middle class white men, who went in for excitement, and a sense of duty,( I count myself in that group) , a large amount of African Americans from the south and eastern urban areas, and a smaller third of Hispanics from either Puerto Rico or the southwest. I always thought I would come across those whose other choice was jail , but I cannot remember them now. I came from a very isolated upper middle class white area. I saw minorities on the opposing high school football field and then Parris Island. I never considered the other's reasons for joining, I thought it was the same as mine. But one night on a deployment I was spent the hours talking to a squadron mate I had shared a series with at the Parris Island. He was black, and from Miami, I was white and from Pensacola. The more we talked I realized he was from a completely different world than I. I chose enlisted Marine for a few years before college because I thought I needed to grow up. He chose enlisted Marine over being homeless. It was a humbling thought. It was a time of relative peace (1980-1986) compared to now. I wonder if two 19 year olds on the deck of an LPH today would find themselves having a similar discussion.

 

[Hotdogs]

Yes. Oh yes.

And when you visit Mother, you might even finally figure out why we sent you to five BI sims and seven BI flights.

Which is funny, out of 7 BI flights and what maybe 10 RI hops in the 57? I never got the leans or even near spacial D.

In 2 flights at the RAG... I'm batting a 1.000 with 2/2 flights with the leans and one was full on recognized spacial D.

The snake is not a great instrument platform.

 

[phrogpilot73]

I wonder if two 19 year olds on the deck of an LPH today would find themselves having a similar discussion.

Never gonna happen...

LPHs don't exist anymore...

 

[squorch2]

LPH, CVE, etc. etc.

 

[Spekkio]

I read with intrigue the diversity elements. From my time as enlisted in the Corps I remember three groups, ....

The fact that anyone still thinks like this demonstrates that we have a long way to go. There were not 3 groups of people with whom you served; there were only Sailors. Once upon a time they weren't Sailors. While that may provide interesting stories on a boring mid watch, when you met them they were not homeless, priviledged, or anything inbetween other than Sailors living on USS Ustasail, who went through the same training pipeline and took the same rating exams that you did. It doesn't help that Big Navy is out to highlight everyone's differences and individuality rather than link us to our common goal of defending the U.S. on the high seas.

So basically, You wouldn't hire any of us to be Naval Aviators...

You entirely missed the point. Sorry I hit a nerve, but when you calm down please re-read my post. Nowhere did I say that employers should not hire college graduates. Instead, I am saying that a college degree doesn't automatically mean you are hard working, smart, and dedicated like some people think it does.

We could debate the advantages or disadvantages of the system that requires Officers to have college degrees in the 21st century, but as Brett would call it, it's just "mental masturbation."

Yes, high school... where attendance is mandatory...

Yep, just like when you have a job.

 

[squorch2]

Yep, just like when you have a job.

Yessir, the cops are going to throw you in jail for non-attendance at your job.

 

[Spekkio]

Who mentioned anything about police? I'm quite sure if I didn't show up to my civilian job for no reason when I had one (or was late an excessive amount of times), I would not have that job for very long.

I have yet to see the police get involved with anyone who decides not to show up to work in the submarine force. They just end up going to mast (but only if it's a repeat offender with a record of counseling chits) and eventually get administratively separated.