Supreme Court to review Stolen Valor Act

[ea6bflyr]

Unbelievable.

Article here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...itary-honors/2012/02/14/gIQANoqGMR_story.html

Xavier Alvarez is appealing his conviction with the Supreme Court using Freedom of Speech as his defense. This is the first case to appeal to the Supreme Court and might may have an impact to future Stolen Valor cases.

I certainly hope the supreme court does the right thing.

-ea6bflyr

 

[phrogdriver]

This is one of those times when the "right" thing and the "legal" thing might not coincide.

It's not illegal to lie, unless it's done in order to defraud, done in court under oath, etc. It doesn't matter whether it's an ugly and disgusting lie, such as falsely claiming one's a Medal of Honor recipient.

I can see the court limiting the Stolen Valor Act to those cases where financial gain or the like is in question, e.g. falsely claiming veteran status while applying for a job, but I think they might reject those portions of the law pertaining to just run-of-the-mill jackasses wearing uniforms they aren't entitled to.

I know we're all about how special we are as veterans, but to put this in the court's perspective, should it be illegal to dress up in the uniform of another profession in general or say you do something you don't? There are a lot of "lawyers" and "doctors" at nightclubs who would end up in jail. It's not illegal to dress up as a cop, unless you start trying to make traffic stops on your own, e.g. use the uniform in an official capacity on a false basis.

The stolen valor cases involving fraud or using a uniform to get on bases, etc, will be GTG. I think the assclowns will regain their rights to be stupid.

 

[Criminal]

Phrog agreed.... I think it really comes down to personal responsibility. Something that seems to be disappearing at a rapid rate. Yeah you (technically) have the right to be an asshole, but should you really?

 

[Brett327]

Phrog agreed.... I think it really comes down to personal responsibility. Something that seems to be disappearing at a rapid rate. Yeah you (technically) have the right to be an asshole, but should you really?

I think that's his point.

Brett

 

[Criminal]

I think that's his point.

Brett

I need it sounded out in crayon

 

[Recovering LSO]

the bigger issue might be one of undeserved benefits. one does not necessarily receive compensation or benefit from lying about being a doctor or a dentist.

(unless you're the hero dentist that amputated someone's leg...)

 

[insanebikerboy]

This is one of those times when the "right" thing and the "legal" thing might not coincide.

It's not illegal to lie, unless it's done in order to defraud, done in court under oath, etc. It doesn't matter whether it's an ugly and disgusting lie, such as falsely claiming one's a Medal of Honor recipient.

I can see the court limiting the Stolen Valor Act to those cases where financial gain or the like is in question, e.g. falsely claiming veteran status while applying for a job, but I think they might reject those portions of the law pertaining to just run-of-the-mill jackasses wearing uniforms they aren't entitled to.

I know we're all about how special we are as veterans, but to put this in the court's perspective, should it be illegal to dress up in the uniform of another profession in general or say you do something you don't? There are a lot of "lawyers" and "doctors" at nightclubs who would end up in jail. It's not illegal to dress up as a cop, unless you start trying to make traffic stops on your own, e.g. use the uniform in an official capacity on a false basis.

The stolen valor cases involving fraud or using a uniform to get on bases, etc, will be GTG. I think the assclowns will regain their rights to be stupid.

In my opinion, the issue in question isn't the fact that someone says they are a vet or a specific medal winner, it's the false representation of what winning that award means.

For example, if I say I'm a doctor in a bar, odds are the chick I tell that to doesn't immediately ask me how to cure whatever ails her (unless she has a tube steak deficiency ).

On the other hand, in my experience when someone learns that a person is a vet or still active, they get asked questions about who they are, what they did, etc, and the conversation goes from there.

The difference in my mind is how the person is representing the story they are putting forth. The doctor example pretty much ends there, however the phony vet basically keeps the lie going.

So, is that anywhere near a legal opinion? Nope, but that's how I see it!

 

[squorch2]

Fraud statutes already cover these situations with no first amendment considerations. It's gonna get shot down with a quickness.

 

[xj220]

In my opinion, the issue in question isn't the fact that someone says they are a vet or a specific medal recipient, it's the false representation of what receiving that award means.

Fixed.

 

[Brett327]

In my opinion, the issue in question isn't the fact that someone says they are a vet or a specific medal winner, it's the false representation of what winning that award means.

For example, if I say I'm a doctor in a bar, odds are the chick I tell that to doesn't immediately ask me how to cure whatever ails her (unless she has a tube steak deficiency ).

On the other hand, in my experience when someone learns that a person is a vet or still active, they get asked questions about who they are, what they did, etc, and the conversation goes from there.

The difference in my mind is how the person is representing the story they are putting forth. The doctor example pretty much ends there, however the phony vet basically keeps the lie going.

So, is that anywhere near a legal opinion? Nope, but that's how I see it!

I don't see the distinction you're drawing. You're saying that the amount of time that one might discuss or perpetrate a false story is the difference between a criminal act and a garden variety lie? I know you're not trying to make a legal distinction, but I don't see the logical distinction either. What if the guy in the bar pretending to be a doctor keeps his story up for months while dating the chick he picked up? Assuming that he doesn't try to practice medicine in any way, does that now meet the threshold for a criminal act? Food for thought.

Brett

 

[phrogdriver]

the bigger issue might be one of undeserved benefits. one does not necessarily receive compensation or benefit from lying about being a doctor or a dentist.

(unless you're the hero dentist that amputated someone's leg...)

What benefits are you talking about? If someone falsely claims veteran status to get bennies from the VA, that's a serious crime already, Stolen Valor or not.

If you're talking about public prestige and the like, lying about being a doctor works just fine.

The military has a lot of prestige right now, because of the wars. People just like to get credit for things they didn't do. If I claimed to have hit the game-winning homer in the World Series, it's easy to disprove. If I just completed a secret undercover mission as Agent Orange for SEAL Team 666, that's harder for the average joe to wrap his head around.

 

[Brett327]

What benefits are you talking about? If someone falsely claims veteran status to get bennies from the VA, that's a serious crime already, Stolen Valor or not.

Why is it so hard for people to wrap their minds around this concept?

Brett

 

[Recovering LSO]

What benefits are you talking about? If someone falsely claims veteran status to get bennies from the VA, that's a serious crime already, Stolen Valor or not.

If you're talking about public prestige and the like, lying about being a doctor works just fine.

The military has a lot of prestige right now, because of the wars. People just like to get credit for things they didn't do. If I claimed to have hit the game-winning homer in the World Series, it's easy to disprove. If I just completed a secret undercover mission as Agent Orange for SEAL Team 666, that's harder for the average joe to wrap his head around.

Why is it so hard for people to wrap their minds around this concept?

Brett

http://greenwich-post.com/online/da...2-fake-veteran-says-he-will-return-money.html
http://www.wiscnews.com/portagedailyregister/news/article_59bac350-ea51-11e0-873d-001cc4c03286.html
From Scotland - but same premise: http://news.stv.tv/scotland/highlands-islands/266039-war-hero-jailed-for-fake-charity-claim/
http://www.gazette.com/articles/veterans-53985-group-colorado.html
http://themilitarywallet.com/veterans-day-free-meals-and-discounts/
http://www.bradsdeals.com/blog/2010/09/22/160-stores-with-military-discounts/

google can help you find thousands more...

As I stated earlier - this, to me, is a bigger (i.e, different, separate, greater) issue than a shitbag telling a chick in a bar that he's a SEAL or a Marine, or a whatever. These are examples of theft - and if either of you had thought before responding you would have realized that I was pointing out a difference - I think Phrogdriver called it a "serious crime" - agreed.

So I think we can agree that there is opportunity to benefit financially from telling people you're a veteran (and it can happen at much lower levels than defrauding the VA) - telling people you're a doctor isn't going to get you a "MD discount" down at the furniture store, but it might if you've got a sweet-ass story about your time in the shit. This to me should be the threshold for prosecution - have you used your lie to reap financial benefit.

 

[phrogdriver]

Fine, then. If you lie in order to defraud, that's already illegal. If that's our concern, we're in vigorous agreement.

However, let's be honest. Most DAs aren't going to put the full-court press on someone defrauding Denny's out of a 10% discount on the Early Bird Special. Enter the Stolen Valor Act. I'm as pissed off as anyone about lying sacks of shit who misrepresent themselves as veterans. The more I think about it, though, the truly egregious scumbags are already subject to other criminal and civil penalties.

The blowhard in the bar, well, he's a dick, but I'm not sure the FBI and US Attorneys need to be concerned with him while they're supposed to be catching terrorists and stopping espionage and such. I don't know how many of you remember the '90s, but there was a time when the answer to any hot-button issue was to make it a federal crime. Small-time crimes, like domestic violence and minor drug possession, got bumped up to federal raps. That's a serious commitment of resources. Vigorous prosecution of those who actually commit fraud, coupled by civil suits and public shaming, will shut down most of the garden-variety douches.

 

[Brett327]

this, to me, is a bigger (i.e, different, separate, greater) issue than a shitbag telling a chick in a bar that he's a SEAL or a Marine, or a whatever.

We get that, and I agree on a moral level, just not on a legal one. Like PD said (about five times now), fraud is already illegal. If it will make you happy and assuage your moral outrage, I'd agree to making impersonating a veteran an aggravating circumstance to fraud. There's really nothing more to discuss from a legal standpoint. We're going around in circles here.

Brett