Super Duper Hornet Walkaround

[Pugs]

Noted regarding the current leadership. However, this aircraft was bought what 10 years ago? It's our current leadership that's trying to axe (at least part) of the program (I imagine our current leadership had other priorities when this program came to fruition.). The briefs Ive been to claimed the systems had all been and is still being flight tested (granted they weren't installed in an F35). Are you claiming the technology doesn't exist?.

Our current leadership is having to live with realities that we didn't have 10 years ago. Yes, LM won the contract for the JSF in 2001- but development started in 95and IOC isn't until 2014 (right now) That's almost a 20 year gestation period. That's multiple generations of software and hardware and at least one generation of tactical and strategc doctrine. We will also expect to fly it for 40 years minimum. As a point of reference that would be similar to the F-4, that design began on in 52 entering service in 72 and being flown as the frint line fighter until 2012.

Certainly some of the technology exists but the integration and test of that technology has always been a challenge. Not to mention it's not this technology that I'm concerned about but the next generation.

Zero growth capability? In regards to what? Systems/sensors? The same ones that are growing in fidelity, accuracy and speed, all the while getting smaller and lighter??.

While the boxes are getting small and lighter (in my time in the EA-6B we went from 33,300 lbs empty to 33,000 IIRC) but take a look at fighter aircraft that have served long lives and been able to adapt to new missions, weapons and tactics. I would say the F-4, F-15, F-14, F-16 are all examples and if there is one thing they share it was excess power and airframe space (F-16 may not qualify for space but they just keep hanging stuff on the outside) . In the JSF we have very little extra power and it is very compact. Even if boxes shrunk by 30%, and they won't, it's not like that frees up lots of space.

Pugs, with all due respect, all you've said is some XO RIO couldn't justify 2-seats 16 years ago? F-16s scattered all over Arizona (and probably Harriers too), but how many of either of those are we crashing today?

I'm not arguing the utility of the AV-8, I'm fully aware of its capabilities and limitations.

That XO was a pretty bright guy, a TPS grad and a doctorate in Aerospace Engineering. My point in bringing him up was that he understood not just the engineering side but the requirements and the real world operational environment and while he thought Boeing was building the better jet, he did not believe the Navy had gone down the right road with the core requirments. I can't find any flaws in his argument even now.

Please don't think I'm dumping on the Harrier. The Corp has gotten good service out of it over many years but it's the closest comparision we have to the JSF at this point and you know the limitation far better than I do of the platform.

As usual the service will make it work and the guys who fly it will make it the best weapon possible but I'm glad I'm not one of them.

 

[Banjo33]

I'm definitely not knocking the XO you referred to, didn't mean to come off that way. I only meant to point out that he may have been partial (agenda?) to preserving his MOS, not to mention how could he predict where the tech would be this far down the road (and 5-10 years further for that matter)? I mean, we weren't even using debit cards yet in 95! I have no idea what the reqs were in 95, I can't imagine they were the same/as capable as what they are today. Especially considering that even today 16 years later what LM is advertising and what I've seen demonstrated is straight out of a sci-fi movie.

I understand the boxes won't get much smaller, but the tech capes WILL advance while remaining in the same size box without getting bigger. The airframe doesn't have to get bigger/engine more powerful to accommodate. They've not started hanging anything on external pylons yet, but we know it's a growth capability inherent within the current airframe/engine combo (-B VL limitations not withstanding). Of course you only hang externals threat permitting or as a jettisonable option...which applies to the F-16 (insert ANY F-series here).

Dump away on the AV-8. I loved flying the aircraft, the mission, its unique capes, and I don't think the avionics/pilot interface could be beat by anything being flown prior to 2005 and wouldnt have traded that experience for anything. Im a better pilot for having flown it. But, like you said, I understand its limitations and short comings all too well. But I KNOW there is NO valid comparison between it and the JSF. Two absolutely, completely different aircraft.

 

[Fog]

jboomer:
I acknowledge that picking on the AV-8 was only marginally fair, but we must all remember that the wonderful technologies to be incorporated in the F-35 are just that: L-M "advertising" as you cited. The abilities of the F/A-18F are demonstrated every day in the fleet - which makes its pending upgrades even more credible when applied. Before the USA & other nations buy thousands of unproven F-35s, let's hope that "all-aspect situational awareness" system really works as advertised, because the pilot can't look aft w/out yawing the a/c and he doesn't have a WSO to do it for him. An all F-35B inventory is a huge expense for the Corps to have the luxury of organic CAS for MEUs when we haven't had a contested amphibious landing since Inchon in 1950. IMHO, the Corps would be better served with 120 F/A-18Fs, a similar number of Super Tucanos for the COIN role in Afghanistan, et al., and maybe 100 F-35Bs for the Marine amphibious mission. Although I am old & irrelevant, you really stepped in it when you dismissed the NFO community in the Navy & USMC as technologically obsolete. Even the pilot posters here all seem to agree that a tactical a/c w/ 2 seats filled by 2 trained & competent aviators willoutperform a single-seat a/c every time.

 

[A4sForever]

..... Even the pilot posters here all seem to agree that a tactical a/c w/ 2 seats filled by 2 trained & competent aviators willoutperform a single-seat a/c every time.

You silly, balmy, batty, crazy, daffy, dippy, dizzy, fatuous, flighty, foolhardy, illogical, imprudent, irrational, irrelevant, muddle-headed, nonsensical, preposterous, vacuous, zany, silly, silly, silly NFO, you ...

Your 'only in heaven' idea doesn't work when you're faced w/ a Wiley Bogey from the experienced, skilled, tenacious, trained, certain, mature, sensible, serious, and wise Dallas RANGERS.

And 'check 6' ??? You'd better check all the quadrants available !!!

BEWARE THE WILEY (Dallas) BOGEY !!!

​

 

[Banjo33]

Fortunately we're not arguing about what the Corps needs because I'd have to continue to disagree with you! Lol...one fight at a time (must be my single seat mentality showing here). What I implied and thought I was clear about was that due to existing and forecasted technological advances coming to a NEW aircraft, NFOs and multi engines weren't necessary. Not necessarily obsolete, because in some circumstances there are benefits. The Super (-F model that is, remember the -E is single seat), although filling that role, gives me the perception that it's merely a gap filler until JSF comes online. Do I think the JSF will make the NFO obsolete? Absolutely...eventually. Just as I'm also a believer that the pilot is an endangered species. We've seen the AF already bet the future on a single seat platform (first with the F-117 and then F-22, although both were multiengine). As of yet, 5th GEN isn't requiring multi crewed cockpits. Let's also not forget that all 3 of these aircraft are Lockheed products. Stealth ground attack (-117), premier fighter (-22), and the NEWEST multi role (-35)....the technology isn't merely smoke and mirrors. I'm surprised at the doubt!?

To be honest I could careless if I angered the NFOs. Good on them though for having the pride in and for defending their MOS. The reality is we're (as a country) investing our money in single seat 5th GEN, not multi crewed cockpits.

Oh yeah, and EA? We've whittled a 4-person job (EA-6) down to a 2-person job (Growler) with an existing platform carrying externally mounted pods. How is it such a stretch of the imagination that a new aircraft could be capable of performing the same role with only one person? The systems can be made autonomous and there you have it.

 

[cfam]

Oh yeah, and EA? We've whittled a 4-person job (EA-6) down to a 2-person job (Growler) with an existing platform carrying externally mounted pods. How is it such a stretch of the imagination that a new aircraft could be capable of performing the same role with only one person? The systems can be made autonomous and there you have it.

[OPSEC edit - The Management] And I really can't see doing all the EA stuff with only one guy, regardless of how much technology matures. Just the humble opinion of a Prowler nugget though.

 

[nittany03]

This particular threadjack needs to be taken SIPR side if it's to continue, in my non-PTI opinion.

 

[cfam]

Agreed..i can see the OPSEC issue, mods feel free to edit/delete my last post if needed.

 

[Fog]

BEWARE THE WILEY (Dallas) BOGEY !!! [/B][/SIZE]

A4s - The picture you posted obviously reflects one of two possible situations:
(a) You were disoriented & lost (again) over the desert, and the F-4 is leading you back to the field & Happy Hour; or,
(b) The F-4 driver is an attack puke who used his only ACM maneuver (pull left or right as hard as possible on the stick) and after 2 level turns discovered he had an A-4 trapped in his 6 o'clock position.

Be grateful: the Dallas F-4 community provided you a bogey-rich environment for a number of years - and did wonders for your self-esteem!

 

[Catmando]

BEWARE THE WILEY (Dallas) BOGEY !!! [/B][/SIZE]

A4s - The picture you posted obviously reflects one of two possible situations:
(a) You were disoriented & lost (again) over the desert, and the F-4 is leading you back to the field & Happy Hour; or,
(b) The F-4 driver is an attack puke who used his only ACM maneuver (pull left or right as hard as possible on the stick) and after 2 level turns discovered he had an A-4 trapped in his 6 o'clock position.

Be grateful: the Dallas F-4 community provided you a bogey-rich environment for a number of years - and did wonders for your self-esteem!

+ 1

Wish I still had my old Photoshopped image of A4s photo. I had the F-4 and A-4 roles reversed.... which is how I always remembered it! Hehe.

 

[BusyBee604]

Fogster

BEWARE THE WILEY (Dallas) BOGEY !!! [/B][/SIZE]
(a) You were disoriented & lost (again) over the desert, and the F-4 is leading you back to the field & Happy Hour; or,
(b) The F-4 driver is an attack puke who used his only ACM maneuver (pull left or right as hard as possible on the stick) and after 2 level turns discovered he had an A-4 trapped in his 6 o'clock position.

Yo Youngster...I was tracking the twin "turkey feathers" of Phantums in MY gunsight...when you were still a College Preppie! heh heh. 90 miils, one size fits all. :icon_tong
BzB

 

[flaps]

well, its only common sense that modern technology would make the second seat obsolete in future tactical aircraft. technology has been making useless stuff stuff go away for a long time.
like, i mean even back in the '50's evolving technology made it possible to predict future requirements.
a perfect example was the missile technology that evolved with the phantom which made guns and acm obsolete.
sheesh! i tell you people everything i know and you still don't know nothing.

 

[A4sForever]

BEWARE THE WILEY (Dallas) BOGEY !!!
Be grateful: the Dallas F-4 community provided you a bogey-rich environment for a number of years - and did wonders for your self-esteem!

Ohhhhh ... but I AM grateful.

When Harding & BI (Big Idiot) crashed & burned and I was out of profitable work for close to a year ... UNCLE and his A4s were there with a paycheck that allowed food on the table and the electric bill to be paid ...

But, ME (???) --- an ATTACK Puke makin' good in (Reserve) FIGHTERTOWN (???) ... now, who could know ??? Universes were colliding !!!

PLUS ... it was always amusing watching Navy, Marine, and Air Force Fighter Pukes and their NFO male secretaries makin' excuses & crying in the debrief for gettin' gunned by a --- *gasp* --- ATTACK PUKE !!!

 

[Catmando]

Ohhhhh ... but I AM grateful.

...

But, ME (???) --- an ATTACK Puke makin' good in (Reserve) FIGHTERTOWN (???) ... now, who could know ??? Universes were colliding !!!

I'll bet you may have known "Mauler" Mike Guenther. ... the colorful attack pilot (A-4s and maybe A-7s of our vintage) who crossed over to fighters and made quite a name for himself at NKX as a fighter tactics expert, both on the ground and in the air. (Of course he had an ego to match, if not exceed. ...and sadly no longer with us.)

 

[flaps]

its been my experience that attack pukes also sing better than real fighter pilots.
..

i remember mike guenther. 'vaguely' remember the ego, also.