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Super Duper Hornet Walkaround
- Thread starter SynixMan
- Start date
Not necessarily a life insurance policy nowadays but the same thing happens in 15E's. I'm sure Hacker can chime in as to exactly how much stick time the WSO's get.
Up until @ 1970-ish ... most of the GIBs in Air Force F-4s WERE pilots ... then the dedicated WSOs started filtering into 'the pit' and pilots went elsewhere.
I don't know if it was the case with other units that flew F-100F's for SEAD missions, but the Misty's generally had two pilots with the GIB spotting, on the radio, or trying to take pictures. On a side note, if anyone hasn't read Bury Us Upside Down about the Misty FAC's in Vietnam, I'd highly recommend it.
We're not exactly going into down town Hanoi in F-4s any more. If we were still operating with the same technology you were, id whole-heartedly agree. I'd consider your scenario in today's day and age as likely as a full scale amphibious assault. But then again, I'm 100% sold on the necessity of equipping and training our forces to conduct the mission.
I think it's unfortunate that many details of the JSF capabilities are still classified. If not, we could talk about how the aircraft can do nearly all of the same tasks as a WSO (faster and better), including give the pilot his daily ego injection. It can't fly the pilot home though, but I'd bet that wouldn't be hard to fix.
I can't help but find it hard to believe that our leadership would bet $300 billion dollars on the fact that this aircraft is just as effective as a multi-crewed?
How many of those capabilities are actually in an aircraft and how many of them are in the PowerPoint code development stage? The answer is most. The jet is in basic flight test.
You're talking about the same "leadership" that is busy firing effective Skippers and has exactly zero options on the JSF. It will work because they said it will work.
I was a PM at NAVAIRRES NUW back in 95 and the XO of the unit was high up at Boeing in the then hot and heavy JSF competition. He said the way the requirements were written that there were zero ways to meet them with a second seat and a second engine and if he could have restricted the pilot to 150 lbs he would have. He was an F-14 RIO and believed it was a mistake and said there was simply no way out of it. It was preordained. This was 16 years ago as the USAF was dropping single engine F-16's all over Arizona and since then the Navy has found that the current conflict and technology is challenging to a single seat and upped the buy of F/A-18F's.
We're buying an airplane with zero growth capability. Hell, even the replacement engines won't fit in a COD.
I knew that was that way with the Cs, but I didn't know it lasted up to 70.
Keep meaning to get that book......will have to pick it up next time I stop by B&N/Borders
Just did some Google work, and I'll let everyone reach their own conclusions from the info herein:
USN/USMC losses in Desert Storm were as follows:
4 AV-8B
3 A-6E
2 OV-10
2 F-18
1 F-14
There were 4 Harrier squadrons (all obviously Marine) deployed in theater (1 at sea, 3 on land). Needless to say there were lots more than 4 A-6 squadrons & F-14 squadrons in the area (probably ~ 15). Even though the total sortie rates for F-14s & A-6s must have vastly exceeded those for Harriers, the losses were the same as Harriers lost. While the design of the AV-8 apparently makes it more susceptible to SAMs, maybe fewer would have been lost if another crewman had been there to warn of SAMs & AA. I would surmise the last aircraft to send downtown would be a single-seat Harrier. JMHO, though.
USN/USMC losses in Desert Storm were as follows:
4 AV-8B
3 A-6E
2 OV-10
2 F-18
1 F-14
There were 4 Harrier squadrons (all obviously Marine) deployed in theater (1 at sea, 3 on land). Needless to say there were lots more than 4 A-6 squadrons & F-14 squadrons in the area (probably ~ 15). Even though the total sortie rates for F-14s & A-6s must have vastly exceeded those for Harriers, the losses were the same as Harriers lost. While the design of the AV-8 apparently makes it more susceptible to SAMs, maybe fewer would have been lost if another crewman had been there to warn of SAMs & AA. I would surmise the last aircraft to send downtown would be a single-seat Harrier. JMHO, though.
I read once that every Harrier hit in combat had gone down. That's dated info circa 91 though and I know there was a Sea Harrier during the Falklands that took a round, leaving a nice neat hole, through the vertical stab but it doesn't have a great record of flying around with holes in it.
Like the F-8 putting it's triple redundant stuff (like hyd actuators) all next to each other to make maint easy there is lot and lots of stuff on a Harrier crammed right next to each other on a small package. Perhaps the JSF will be more survivable with it's fly-by-wire and more modern materials.
harrier humor follows
..
I SHALL RETURN...Well, I might.
Mach Nix.
The AV-8. Takes a licking, and takes a licking.
Have you hugged your chute today?
This Vehicle Makes Frequent Stops.
I came. I saw. I bingo'd.
No deposit, no return.
We've spent so much money on this thing that we can't afford to admit we were wrong.
A triumph of style over substance.
The best damn second place fighter in the world.
Instead of a CAS mod, we're going to install a roll bar.
And now with this LANTIRN thing and our new Block 40's, we can hit the ground at NIGHT!
We cover the target like a thong bikini.
And BINGO is my Name-O.
We crash more airplanes before 9-o'clock than most people crash all day.
Last in the talent show, but first in the swimsuit competition.
Lose a few, lose a few.
Feet and knees together, eyes on the horizon...
Designated no-hitter.
Everything you wanted in a fighter and less.
Optimist: Harrier pilot who's worried about dying from cancer.
Only Michael Jackson is more manly.
Hey, today we didn't lose a single jet.
This is going to hurt me more than it's going to hurt you.
User friendly... if you've got three hands.
If we have a war with BDUs, we've got 'em beat.
Careful badguys...I'm carrying BOTH bombs today. I'm talkin' wall-to-wall MK-82's Pal.
If I carried more weapons, and if I had enough gas, and if I could actually hit the target, and if I had some more REALLY expensive electrons so I could find you,
..
Recently, a Marine Corps Harrier Squadron was invited to attend the annual Air Force Red Flag exercised at Nellis Air Force Base, NV. This is one of the USAF's big exercises where they test Combined Arms employment of tactical air assets. The USAF F-15 pilots showed up on the ramp with dozens of rear echelon airman types and tons of equipment such as Ground Power Units, Accessory Power Units, Hummers, Trucks, Air Conditioners, etc. The Marines appeared ready to operate in a combat environment and showed up with only their Harriers. The Air Force commander commented to the Marine commander: "Where is all your support stuff? Geezz, you guys really are just Grunts that know how to fly."
Not wanting to disappoint the Air Force commander, the Marine commander got an idea of his own to carry on the comment. He talked to his First Sergeant and later that night, the First Sergeant had his Marines make up bayonet studs on hose clamps. You see, there is a Pitot tube sticking out of the nose of a Harrier. In the late hours of darkness, the First Sergeant had the clamp with the bayonet stud tightened onto the Pitot tubes of each Harrier.
The next morning, the Air Force pilots fell out on the ramp in front of their F-15s. The Marine pilots fell out on the other side of the ramp in front of their Harriers. Each Marine pilot had on his deuce gear with a bayonet in the scabbard. The USAF commander ordered his pilots to "man your planes." The USAF ground crews by the dozens scrambled to their trucks, APU's, GPU's, etc. and the pilots ran to their planes. The Marine commander ordered his Marines to "Fix Bayonets." Each pilot ran to the front of their Harrier and fixed his bayonet on the stud attached to the Pitot tube. The Marine commander then ordered "CHARGE" and the Marines jumped in their Harriers, dusted airborne, and flew off. The Marine commander turned to the USAF commander and said; "Now that is what we Marines consider Close Ground Support."
..
I SHALL RETURN...Well, I might.
Mach Nix.
The AV-8. Takes a licking, and takes a licking.
Have you hugged your chute today?
This Vehicle Makes Frequent Stops.
I came. I saw. I bingo'd.
No deposit, no return.
We've spent so much money on this thing that we can't afford to admit we were wrong.
A triumph of style over substance.
The best damn second place fighter in the world.
Instead of a CAS mod, we're going to install a roll bar.
And now with this LANTIRN thing and our new Block 40's, we can hit the ground at NIGHT!
We cover the target like a thong bikini.
And BINGO is my Name-O.
We crash more airplanes before 9-o'clock than most people crash all day.
Last in the talent show, but first in the swimsuit competition.
Lose a few, lose a few.
Feet and knees together, eyes on the horizon...
Designated no-hitter.
Everything you wanted in a fighter and less.
Optimist: Harrier pilot who's worried about dying from cancer.
Only Michael Jackson is more manly.
Hey, today we didn't lose a single jet.
This is going to hurt me more than it's going to hurt you.
User friendly... if you've got three hands.
If we have a war with BDUs, we've got 'em beat.
Careful badguys...I'm carrying BOTH bombs today. I'm talkin' wall-to-wall MK-82's Pal.
If I carried more weapons, and if I had enough gas, and if I could actually hit the target, and if I had some more REALLY expensive electrons so I could find you,
..
Recently, a Marine Corps Harrier Squadron was invited to attend the annual Air Force Red Flag exercised at Nellis Air Force Base, NV. This is one of the USAF's big exercises where they test Combined Arms employment of tactical air assets. The USAF F-15 pilots showed up on the ramp with dozens of rear echelon airman types and tons of equipment such as Ground Power Units, Accessory Power Units, Hummers, Trucks, Air Conditioners, etc. The Marines appeared ready to operate in a combat environment and showed up with only their Harriers. The Air Force commander commented to the Marine commander: "Where is all your support stuff? Geezz, you guys really are just Grunts that know how to fly."
Not wanting to disappoint the Air Force commander, the Marine commander got an idea of his own to carry on the comment. He talked to his First Sergeant and later that night, the First Sergeant had his Marines make up bayonet studs on hose clamps. You see, there is a Pitot tube sticking out of the nose of a Harrier. In the late hours of darkness, the First Sergeant had the clamp with the bayonet stud tightened onto the Pitot tubes of each Harrier.
The next morning, the Air Force pilots fell out on the ramp in front of their F-15s. The Marine pilots fell out on the other side of the ramp in front of their Harriers. Each Marine pilot had on his deuce gear with a bayonet in the scabbard. The USAF commander ordered his pilots to "man your planes." The USAF ground crews by the dozens scrambled to their trucks, APU's, GPU's, etc. and the pilots ran to their planes. The Marine commander ordered his Marines to "Fix Bayonets." Each pilot ran to the front of their Harrier and fixed his bayonet on the stud attached to the Pitot tube. The Marine commander then ordered "CHARGE" and the Marines jumped in their Harriers, dusted airborne, and flew off. The Marine commander turned to the USAF commander and said; "Now that is what we Marines consider Close Ground Support."
Noted regarding the current leadership. However, this aircraft was bought what 10 years ago? It's our current leadership that's trying to axe (at least part) of the program (I imagine our current leadership had other priorities when this program came to fruition.). The briefs Ive been to claimed the systems had all been and is still being flight tested (granted they weren't installed in an F35). Are you claiming the technology doesn't exist?
Zero growth capability? In regards to what? Systems/sensors? The same ones that are growing in fidelity, accuracy and speed, all the while getting smaller and lighter?
Pugs, with all due respect, all you've said is some XO RIO couldn't justify 2-seats 16 years ago? F-16s scattered all over Arizona (and probably Harriers too), but how many of either of those are we crashing today?
I'm not arguing the utility of the AV-8, I'm fully aware of its capabilities and limitations.
AAA got two, SAM's got the other two. People are changing the subject to attack the Harrier instead of sticking to the issue, which is somewhat predictable. The day attack Harriers in Desert Storm suffered more just like A-10's and Tornadoes did. Having an extra set of eyes sure didn't seem to help the Tornadoes.
The Navy safety center did a study in the 90s on accident rates 1 seat v 2 seats. Single seaters had a lot higher pilot error accident rate and it was directly attributed task overload, lack of situational awareness and fixation. 4 eyes/2 minds won over 2 eyes/1 mind in every catagory.