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Submarine/Cruiser collision

Renegade One

Well-Known Member
None
It seems the sub surfaced to periscope depth in front of the CG @200yds. The bridge naturally called "all engines back" but it was easily too late. I don't think the San Jack CO or crew will get in trouble in this case at all. The sub however...

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/10/navy-submarine-and-cruiser-collide-off-florida/
Would "Right full rudder" have helped? Out of my swim lane, I know, but an aviator's natural "last ditch" inclination is to "pull hard" in some direction to avoid a collision. Sometimes it works...sometimes it doesn't...
 

xj220

Will fly for food.
pilot
Contributor
Possibly, but it's hard to tell without being there and being an actual ship driver myself. If the sub was that close, it depends on the rate of closure, how quickly they spotted it and were able to react, etc. In the end, that's a lot of tonnage with a lot of energy to move around like that. They may have done a full rudder, but the ship is still going to move forward for a bit.
 

robav8r

D-FENS
None
Contributor
Because it's a cruiser, I doubt it.
What does that mean ??? How is the hull type significant? I remember when the Victor I surfaced under the Kitty Hawk in 1984. Sometimes, subs come to PD/surface in the wrong place at the wrong time and there is nothing the surface unit can do about it. But, knowing the SWO community, they'll find someone to blame on San Jac as quickly as possible.
 

BackOrdered

Well-Known Member
Contributor
Isn't periscope depth some where between 50 and 60 feet?
I don't know.

Would "Right full rudder" have helped? Out of my swim lane, I know, but an aviator's natural "last ditch" inclination is to "pull hard" in some direction to avoid a collision. Sometimes it works...sometimes it doesn't...
I never handled a CG, but it would heavily depend on the amount of wash over the rudder at the time. It seems like if they still hit it at all engines back, a hard right rudder would have never cleared the contact abaft the beam in time.

A starboard engine back full, port engine forward may have worked. The only reason I know that is because my old XO used it to save my dumb ass once :)
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
FWIW, cruisers (and the other gas turbine ships with LM2500 family engines) are capable of "impressive" stopping distances, something I remember my SWO friends telling me. The machinery works pretty much like beta thrust in terms of execution and effectiveness (props quickly reverse pitch without having to stop the shafts and/or change gears, engines spool up quickly, big floating gray thing decelerates hard enough that the crew needs to mind their footing). From what I remember though, ~200yds seems a little tight...

Out of my swim lane on this one too- and deferring to our own, more knowledgeable forum members from here.
 

BigRed389

Registered User
None
What does that mean ??? How is the hull type significant? I remember when the Victor I surfaced under the Kitty Hawk in 1984. Sometimes, subs come to PD/surface in the wrong place at the wrong time and there is nothing the surface unit can do about it. But, knowing the SWO community, they'll find someone to blame on San Jac as quickly as possible.
Actually, the SWO community is pretty fair about assigning blame. I've never heard of anybody getting fired unfairly, if anything we've got the opposite problem. And even in my brief career I've heard enough stories of subs popping up where they shouldn't to know this isn't an isolated occurrence.
I've also had my ass in two mishaps, was absolutely positive I was going to get fired each time (hey that's what SWO's do right?), and was cleared both times.

I was responding to Schnugg's hypothetical of the CG possibly being somewhere they shouldn't. I thought he was implying the CG was off playing cat and mouse with the sub and went out of the "exercise authorized area". For various reasons, I find that highly unlikely. And those reasons are linked to what the platform's usual role is.
 

Renegade One

Well-Known Member
None
I don't know.



I never handled a CG, but it would heavily depend on the amount of wash over the rudder at the time. It seems like if they still hit it at all engines back, a hard right rudder would have never cleared the contact abaft the beam in time.

A starboard engine back full, port engine forward may have worked. The only reason I know that is because my old XO used it to save my dumb ass once :)
Okay...thanks. Nothing like personal experience...
 

jmcquate

Well-Known Member
Contributor
Mybe I'm dumd, but how does a fast attack boat not know where every surface contact is around it being that shallow? Don't they have a bumch of nerds in a room somewhere listening to billion dollor microphones?
 

BigRed389

Registered User
None
FWIW, cruisers (and the other gas turbine ships with LM2500 family engines) are capable of "impressive" stopping distances, something I remember my SWO friends telling me. The machinery works pretty much like beta thrust in terms of execution and effectiveness (props quickly reverse pitch without having to stop the shafts and/or change gears, engines spool up quickly, big floating gray thing decelerates hard enough that the crew needs to mind their footing). From what I remember though, ~200yds seems a little tight...

Out of my swim lane on this one too- and deferring to our own, more knowledgeable forum members from here.
Too many variables. For DDG's you got significantly less advance from a turn than you did trying to go all back full. That said, the charts I looked at were all drawn up for 10kts or more. Also account for a different reaction time than what you're used to...at least a few seconds for the info to make it's way to the right person's brain.

Give it about a month and the report will be out. The report on PORTER was out a few weeks ago. Amazingly, no new lessons were learned.
 

xj220

Will fly for food.
pilot
Contributor
As interesting of a discussion as this is, we don't allow speculation in our mishaps so I think it's only fair to have the same respect for our brethren on and below the surface, especially since the vast majority of us aren't SWOs. Just a thought.
 

ea6bflyr

Working Class Bum
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
As interesting of a discussion as this is, we don't allow speculation in our mishaps so I think it's only fair to have the same respect for our brethren on and below the surface, especially since the vast majority of us aren't SWOs. Just a thought.
...and with that, this thread is now closed.

-ea6bflyr ;)
 
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