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Stupid questions about the Rhino (Super Hornet)

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
What does a deep strike aircraft give you that a tomahawk or (planned) hypersonic missile doesn't?

Just because it says deep strike doesn't mean that is what you'll use it for. Deep Strike also yields persistence/time on station, which is significant attribute in GWOT. Those hypersonics will provide shortened response to call for fire, but they can't loiter. Some Tomahawks can, but they don't have much bringback!
 

squeeze

Retired Harrier Dude
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Yes, I am "steam gauge" era & age. My (intended) point was that the early-model F-18's effectively replaced the A-6, A-7 & F-14 even though that wasn't the original plan. In so doing, they left a lot on the table.

Admittedly, though very expensive, the F-18E/F are entirely different animals but still leave the Navy without a true deep-strike capability. I think the Navy should watch closely what the Israelis have done (e.g., their 2-seat F-16I, which is a locally-created, longer-range/deep-strike a/c built by Israel Aircraft Industries from an F-16D airframe). They don't want the F-35 unless it has 2 seats, and I believe the US Navy version should include a 2-seater as well - to get us seriously back into the deep-strike business.

Of all the mission sets out there, Strike/AI is probably the one best suited to UCAVs & missiles. C minus.
 

Huggy Bear

Registered User
pilot
Two out of three for me. But more importantly...

Cool. I am jealous of the guys who got to fly so many different platforms over a career. I would also caveat that it is one thing to be fully mission capable in every mission a plane can perform and another to just get a quick cat 4 and fly just red air and SSC. If, say, a prowler pilot who just got 10 hours and a NATOPS check was on here discussing the finer points of, say auto vs. ccip dive bombing I would be skeptical.

I studied enough and paid enough attention that (with the exception of spelling "ordnance" correctly) I have an informed opinion. If you don't know the difference between E-2 and AWACS capabilities, then I pray to God that you are not a strike lead, or a division lead for that matter...

I know about as much as any Hornet division lead bubba could and should know. I have worked with both enough to know I would prefer my own Navy bros any day of the week over the Air Force, regardless of conditions. I know better than to speak poorly of another man's woman or his ride. :)

Of course the Hornets went everywhere that the Tomcats went, there was 1,000,000,000,000 lbs of gas in the air.

Amen. Hallejulah. There was a veritable whore house of tankers. I had trouble choosing sometimes.

I'm tired of the Hornet mafia trying to convince everyone that that jet is the end-all be-all. I've been hearing it for 20 years and I'm not buying it.

Fair enough. Conversely, I have grown tired of hearing that "the hornet sux because x- plane can do this better." It probably can, but the hornet does 8 other things that that plane cannot do. I have heard how different platforms can exceed the hornet's capabilities in specific areas and I can't dispute that. Of course, that must be weighed against how many other areas the hornet outperforms.

Hornet (A-D...I don't know enough about the Rhino) is a great jet. It is pilot friendly, easy to fly, easy to get aboard, flexible, expandable, etc. It is also slow, short on gas, and has no bringback.

All true. The rhino has improved greatly on gas and bringback.

+
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Correction for the record

I won't compare E-2's and Awacs because I have never sat in either. Unless you have flown A-6's, F-14's and F-18's your arguments are academic. In Afghanistan and Iraq the hornets went everywhere the tomcats did and employed more variety of ordnance than the tomcats. F-18's employed all J-weps and tomcats just got Jdam in time for Iraq.

From the official Navy News Release:

Story by JO1 Chris Alves

ABOARD USS JOHN F KENNEDY AT SEA – USS John F. Kennedy (CV 67) and Air Wing Seven (CVW-7) continue to lead all battle groups with their Strike-Fighter capabilities. Recently, the MK-83 1,000-pound Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM), were certified safe for flight and are now being flown in Operation Enduring Freedom, on CVW-7’s F/A-18s. These weapons provide F/A-18s the ability to carry more weapons in country and still bring it back aboard "Big John". But it’s not just the F-18’s that have the multi-attack capability on Kennedy.

On March 12, 2002, the Fighter Squadron Eleven (VF 11) "Red Rippers" delivered the first JDAM from a fleet F-14 Tomcat. During a night strike, in support of a coalition ground controller, VF-11 Commanding Officer Cmdr. Chris Aquilino, and Lt. Cmdr. Kevin Protzman, delivered their JDAM on target, in support of Operation Enduring Freedom. This marked the first time a fleet F-14 employed JDAM in a combat situation.

You may have been confused by the introduction of JDAM to the D model Tomcats that was indeed just in time for OIF.
 

Huggy Bear

Registered User
pilot
From the official Navy News Release:



You may have been confused by the introduction of JDAM to the D model Tomcats that was indeed just in time for OIF.

I stand corrected. I was with A's my first cruise and D's for my second. See, I just proved my own point that one should not make claims about an airframe that one does not fly. :icon_wink
 

Nose

Well-Known Member
pilot
The F/A-18 was never intended to replace the A-6, until the Navy and McDonnel Douglas/General Dynamics screwed away the A-12 program in the early 90's.


Flash, you seem well read/well informed. I'm curious, in what way did the NAVY screw away the A-12 program? I don't know 100% about the deal, but I was always under the impression that it was a bad case of runaway Defense Contractor cost overruns... I know the Medium Attack crowd wanted to surround his house and burn it down, but I always admired Admiral Dunleavy for making the "tough call" to CNX the program.
 

raptor10

Philosoraptor
Contributor
Just out of curiousity - how much $ and manhours do you think that took to produce a one-off with no requirement for longevity and ease of maintenance or to still meet the KPP's of the original platform? To echo somebody else above you are doing great on enthusiasm (which actually does count for something) but you are missing a few fries out of this happy meal.
Okay, so the general consensus to the original question is that it would cost less to design and build a whole new untested, un-researched, thrust vectoring aircraft, then it would be to take an airframe that has already had exhaustive done research done on the system and improve off of the existing design, especially when a major focus of the body of work published afterward was this specific scenario...

Simple difference of opinion on the costs of creating a whole new aircraft with unknown variables, than incorporating existing extensive research into a proven platform...

A Method for Integrating Thrust-Vectoring and Actuated Forebody Strakes With Conventional Aerodynamic Controls on a High-Performance Fighter Airplane
 

raptor10

Philosoraptor
Contributor
Flash, you seem well read/well informed. I'm curious, in what way did the NAVY screw away the A-12 program? I don't know 100% about the deal, but I was always under the impression that it was a bad case of runaway Defense Contractor cost overruns... I know the Medium Attack crowd wanted to surround his house and burn it down, but I always admired Admiral Dunleavy for making the "tough call" to CNX the program.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/a-12.htm
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
..... I always admired Admiral Dunleavy for making the "tough call" to CNX the (A-12) program.

Admiral Dunleavy???

Dick Dunleavy was the BEST!!

A great B/N, a great guy, a great mentor, a thoroughly "competent" Navy politician -- and there ain't too many of those -- and a friend of Naval Attack Aviation. Even more so, as he "liked" me .... :)
 

Nose

Well-Known Member
pilot
Admiral Dunleavy???

Dick Dunleavy was the BEST!!

A great B/N, a great guy, a great mentor, a thoroughly "competent" Navy politician -- and there ain't too many of those -- and a friend of Naval Attack Aviation. Even more so, as he "liked" me .... :)

One of my Naval Heroes.

Knew a guy who was on his staff when he was AirLant. This guy wrote a message for the Admiral to send to a squadron that had just won some award or passed some milestone. My buddy wanted a good sendoff that was aggressive and positive, just like the Admiral, so the message concluded with, "Keep Strokin! Dick"


Oops.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Flash, you seem well read/well informed. I'm curious, in what way did the NAVY screw away the A-12 program? I don't know 100% about the deal, but I was always under the impression that it was a bad case of runaway Defense Contractor cost overruns... I know the Medium Attack crowd wanted to surround his house and burn it down, but I always admired Admiral Dunleavy for making the "tough call" to CNX the program.

I don't pretend to be all knowledgeable about a program that was cancelled when I was still in high school ;). From what I have read about the program in professional magazines and in discussing it with former A-6 guys though, the Navy was at fault with the A-12 because of somewhat unrealistic program goals (having that much stealth at the cost and numbers they were looking at, not realistic when looked at in hindsight......and maybe should have been evident at the time to the Navy) and a failure in oversight of the program, not being aware of the train wreck they were heading for in just 3 years from the contract being awarded. Both of which came back to bite the Navy in the ass when they passed on bad gouge from the contractor to the SecDef without knowing it.

It seems to be a common, and disturbingly recurring, theme in many programs nowadays. A direct result of the Navy getting burned with the extremely ambitious A-12 Avenger was the procurement of the 'safe' F/A-18E/F's. I think big Navy realized they needed something on deck really quick to replace the aging A-6's and F-14's, and the Super Hornet was the one viable (and safe) option for the Navy. I am not sure any other program would have survived the budget cuts of the 90's, and like it or not it has kept US Naval Aviation viable at the beginning of the 21st century even if it was a compromise.

 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
....... It seems to be a common, and disturbingly recurring, theme in many programs nowadays...... I am not sure any other program would have survived the budget cuts of the 90's, and like it or not it has kept US Naval Aviation viable at the beginning of the 21st century even if it was a compromise.

Agree with your take on the demise of the A-6 to A-12 program(s). :eek:

And I wasn't in high school at the time ... :)
 

raptor10

Philosoraptor
Contributor
The more I mull over this, the more I think this is one of those

THE MORE THINGS CHANGE ... THE MORE THEY REMAIN THE SAME ...

situations...

The F-35 Lightning II of today is the A-12 Avenger II of yesteryear
Todays' "Flight Plan" capabilities road map of today is the "Hornet 2000" of yesteryear.

And the plan seems solid wrt cost and timeline...

hornetbiblerr7.jpg


I dunno, maybe I'm reading way too much into all this:D
 
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