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State of Military Aviation?

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Bully

Registered User
Question guys:
What's up with the Navy and AF dropping vision requirements for Pilots? (Not that
I'm complaining, mind you). I know the Navy's is 20/30 and I believe the AF has gone to 20/50. They've also apparently raised the maximum age. Are the services really hurting for pilots that badly? What's the feeling like in the aviation community right now? What has caused the problem?
Just curious-
Bully
 

Kenny Husin

Registered User
I really wouldn't be surprised. There are just too many other industries out there with the bigger bucks that more and more people would rather go to. Especially in the computers and engineering fields. I even read that in the year 2004 the Air Force will be short a couple of thousand pilots. So right now the services are really desperate. It's really kind of sad that the US military does not offer the scent that it once did to us younger, potential recruits anymore. These days it's all about making the big bucks, not many care for serving their country anymore. Furhtermore, because of these recent budget cuts, morale among the ranks probably have gone down also.
But hey, look on the bright side: better chances of getting in for you and me!



Edited by - Kenny Husin on 11 June 2000
 

Tripp

You think you hate it now...
Well, I figured I'd put my two cents' worth in...

To a college student, airlines are also very appealing alternatives to military aviation. The civil aviation arena is exploding right now...tons of pilots who flew in the service during the Vietnam-era (and now with the airlines) are approaching the FAA's mandatory retirement age (60). And when it comes down to it, the airlines are willing to shell out the bucks for pilots (we might as well face it: the private sector is going to kick the government's butt every time). What's the line from The Right Stuff ? "No bucks, no Buck Rogers..."

For example: Regional airlines such as ASA, Comair, Continential Express, and Northwest Airlink will hire new pilots with as few as 500 hours (50 multi)! The pay is lousy for an FO on the Brasilia, but stay with them for a couple of years, build your time, get your turbofan rating, and before you know it, you're a first officer with Delta or United...all before the age of 35...and after that, the holy of holies...CAPTAIN!

Unfortunately, "service to country" doesn't mean jack to today's college/high school students--tomorrow's pilots (do you honestly want someone who really doesn't care on your wing?). They're interested in corporate loyalty...life expectancy...$$$. You have to be a special breed now to serve in the military.

Fly Navy! (And if you can't hack it there...Aim High! )

Edited by - Tripp on 11 June 2000
 

Phoenix

Registered User
Look, I´m interested in joining the Navy and I´ll have to do a long way to make it, if I ever do. But you have to know, that not everyone succeeds in the business world. The world is saturated with people trying to get to the big $$$, but because of the sheer number of them, only a small percentage succeds. The others work in a small office and earn 30000$ per year. The college stundents don´t know that, do they?

DEATH FROM ABOVE!
 

Steve Wilkins

Teaching pigs to dance, one pig at a time.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
quote:
The pay is lousy for an FO on the Brasilia, but stay with them for a couple of years, build your time, get your turbofan rating, and before you know it, you're a first officer with Delta or United...


What's a turbofan rating?
 

Dave Shutter

Registered User
Bully, your right about the standards being altered to allow more applicants to fly. I'm not sure about vision standards but the age standards for AF have definately changed. Max age is now thirty and max allowable "transfer period" (meaning: you join the AF as a supply clerk cuz there were no flight slots but you plan to transfer to pilot. The max time you have to sucessfully transfer is...) was extended from three to five years. Of course, along with all of this comes an extension of mandatory service obligation, raised from eight to ten years. (which isn't much longer than a Navy tour as an aviator when you consider the length of training.)

Last time I spoke to my processor at my local Navy recruiting office he mentioned I may not need an age waiver as he thinks the age max may have been rasied. If this turns out to be true it's no surprise since the AF recently upped theirs. Also, due to the low enlistement numbers I wouldn't be surprised to see an obligation extension on the Navy end either. I'll post any concrete news on any Navy age limit change ASAP.

It's funny, a lot of my knowledge of Naval Aviation in the nineties has come from two sources: (besides AIRWARRIORS.COM, and Ens. Werner's site) the books "Bogeys and Bandits", and of course "Airwarriors" the book. These two books, written in the early/mid-nineties describe the average Naval Aviator as a fine-mescher , a super student/athlete who has excelled at everything since childhood. Now old bozo's like me with bad knees and film degrees are eligible to fly!

You guys are also right about graduates these days. Considering the recent health of the economy, (Which Clinton and the Democrats are happy to take full credit for!) it's no surprise that the line of thinking for a kid with a tech degree from a good school, who's looking at a great starting salary, followed by (theoretically) a sucession of great raises, would choose that over push-ups in the mud, running in the sand and cleaning floors with his toothbrush! (I'm still asked if I did all that stuff on a daily basis as a soldier!) That's the image most young people have of the military, not that our recent CIC/admin' has tried to change that!

quote:I think Phoenix makes a good point also. He states that most kids don't realize that only a few really hit the big bucks. Everybody else gets a Dilbert cube and a Dilbert paycheck.

And now for my metaphor of the day:

It's just like filmmaking, especially independent. Every year there's a group of kids somewhere that make a stupid movie for twenty grand that the festival weanies go ape-sh*t over, becomes a hit and gets the producers fame, fortune and studio deals, which in turn inspires every other dumb kid with a trust fund or inheritance to go out and spend it on a film. In reality: for every "Blair Witch", "Clerks", or "El- Mariachi", there's about a couple thousand kids who wreck their lives trying to make a movie. Kevin Smith has no idea how lucky he got. Imagine borrowing a hundred thousand dollars to buy a car, without insurance, knowing that there was only a one in ten chance it wouldn't get wrecked driving it home and be a total loss. That's indy filmmaking.

I also have to agree with Q, I think a lot of this stems from the ammount of national pride instilled in our youngsters, or total lack therof. As big a Marlboro smoking punk that I was as a kid, I look around at teenagers these days and, I hate to sound like my parents but I quess it's inevitable, I ask: What the f*ck is our country gonna be like in twenty years!?

By the way...anybody notice the new recruiting commercials??? I like the Army's latest anti-SEAL commercial where the Rangers are scuba diving with guns, then they're on a Zodiac with bigger guns, then instead of sliding into a MK-5 gun-boat al'a Knight Rider, they slide into a chopper! C'MON!!!

I also have noticed the new Navy infomercial that's on late at night, also milking the SEALS. It's a shame, most of the kids that respond to these ads are gonna flunk the screening PT tests and end up being the barnacle scrapers, dishwashers and mop pushers of the future. Gee, ya'think maybe that's the whole idea???

As to the whole recent "fantasy military job" thing: Why don't they just build a f*ckin' carrier in the middle of Disneyland and sell CAT' shots and traps!

My $.02

Fly Navy

D



Edited by - Dave Shutter on 13 June 2000
 

Phoenix

Registered User
You´re right, Shawn. They have killer deployment time, a pilot on the USS JFK told me that. Altough the pay isn´t that bad (more then most normal people make in our country), such long deployment away from home would require an extra "encouragement" in a form of an extra paycheck. But tell me, have the Navy and the Air Force gone for the worse, or is it just the people? I know there have been budget cuts (clinton´s brilliant knowhow I guess ), but I thought that they only cut the budget on the aeroplanes, like the A6, by putting them out of service, but did the cuts actually affect the personell? Please, someone refresh my knowledge of that.

DEATH FROM ABOVE!
 

Kenny Husin

Registered User
The cuts probably didn't affect the personell directly, but indirectly they must have been hit somehow. New recruits are gonna want something when they get in, pilots are going to want to fly the newest electric jets, and if that hardware is cut off the budget, the new recruits aren't going to be as happy.
It's just like being a kid: they would ball their eyes out if they don't get the latest pokemon collection.
 

Tripp

You think you hate it now...
quote:
What's a turbofan rating?



Um, sorry...that was late at night. I meant to say build up your jet time (on one of those spiffy new regional jets...).


Edited by - Tripp on 13 June 2000

Edited by - Steve Wilkins on 14 June 2000
 

Mcaf

Registered User
The budget cuts affect the morale of the personnel more than the paycheck. It may seem insignificant to some when a working buffer cannot be found but this prevents sailors from doing their jobs. It's not like we just stop buffing decks when the buffers don't wwork; instead we get on our hands and knees and scrub with brillo pads then apply wax with sponges. This is only one of many problems I've seen with lack of funding. We'll never buy less bombs and rockets so we have to cut at the lower end. Most of the navy lives in the lower end(E-1 to E-4). This is why the attrition rate of the navy is so high. Why would a twenty-two year-old with four years of service re-enlist to scrub toilets when he or she can get out and work at a decent company for $30,000.

Those Navy Seal commercials aggravate me also because people who want to be seals must already have the drive to be one or they will never make it. The recruiting tactic is another reason people get out of the Navy. I don't think I've ever met a sailor who said he or she wasn't lied to in some way by the recruiter. A person comes in as a deck seaman and is told he can apply for BUD/S when he's out to sea. Then he gets a big oops, sorry you didn't cut it, now clean everything you see.

Of course all of this is in the lower ranks where I've been so it may be very different at the officer level. I hope it changes very soon because they are the most integral part of the navy. Without them you'll NEVER get a plane off the deck.
 

Dave Shutter

Registered User
quote:I don't think I've ever met a sailor who said he or she wasn't lied to in some way by the recruiter. A person comes in as a deck seaman and is told he can apply for BUD/S when he's out to sea. Then he gets a big oops, sorry you didn't cut it, now clean everything you see.

Recruiters have always had to resort to certain tactics to keep the military's floors clean and it's windows wiped, it's a shame but filling undesirable MOS's is the bottom line.

As far as applying for OCS/SNA, one thing that's been really great is being prior service.Let me get an Amen Q! Even though I was in a different branch and field, they know I know the drill and can't be bullshi*ted, or at least not as easily as a raw college kid.

Again, back to the car dealership; I let the dealer know through a few carefully selected comments and questions that I now exactly how the game is played and that i'm not an easy quota/sales notch, suddenly they're not as friendly. Wether it's a dealer or recruiter, you can always tell when you've accomplished this: it's when they stop smiling at you! That's one thing I've oticed, my recruiter hates when I call him (irony baby!) because I've always got a queastion he doesn't want to answer.
But then again Oficer selections seems pretty cut and dry to me, you either get hired by your community or you don't. When the guy says: "don't worry Dave, sign up now for waste control logistics officer until a pilot slot opens up." Then I'll know it's time to walk.

Fly Navy

D
 

Steve Wilkins

Teaching pigs to dance, one pig at a time.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Shawn,

Why'd you decide not to go. Did they not guarantee you a pilot slot?

Best regard,
 
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