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Stars and Bars

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Sure. Like they were sleeping when flag issues came up in at least three states in the last 10 years. For God's sake, Walmart is based in Arkansas. The current spotlight is on a terribly tragic incident. But the issue has been alive all along. Believe what you like. If this hadn't happened and the subsequent negative influences were not present none of these companies would have done a thing....

Not since the flag was taken down from over the South Carolina capital building 15 years ago has this issue garnered anywhere near the amount of national attention that is has now. This mass murder was the impetus for the latest rejection of the flag but it has been building for a long time. Whatever the impetus it is the right thing to do.

To argue that somehow that the wholesale rejection of the flag and other confederate related symbols is unfair or bad is...well, it is about time the symbols are relegated to the museums where they belong. Ironic since the whole notion of the country was about keeping certain people in their place, finally the symbols of that government will be put in their proper place.
 

jmcquate

Well-Known Member
Contributor
I just want to say thanks to all who have responded to this thread. This is exactly what I expected, from the members I expected from.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
... You can chose to see it as a sad relic of a time long gone held onto by SOME people who's views are so unacceptable today that they live in the shadows and can't possibly hold any sway over the minorities of this country. Long ago the Confederate Battle flag was co-opted and made a symbol of white racism. Something it never really was to the average soldier. That is just a fact. So I say redefine it again. Make it a symbol of the defeat of racism. Make it a symbol of pride for those that defeated it. I for one could never be hurt or offended by any such symbol.

Unrealistic by any stretch of the imagination, especially when the flag was a symbol of government founded in the defense of slavery in the first place.
 

Hotdogs

I don’t care if I hurt your feelings
pilot
Am I the only one on here that thinks of rednecks, budweiser beer, lifted pick up trucks, trailer parks, lynyrd skynyrd, shotguns, Marlboro reds, diesel fuel, the florabama, and missing teeth upon first glance of the Stars and Bars? or some combination of there of? Serious question.
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Unrealistic by any stretch of the imagination, especially when the flag was a symbol of government founded in the defense of slavery in the first place.
Really? Only if you prefer to be a victim or perpetually offended by anything you disagree with (and I don't think that is you). If the leadership of the NAACP and Southern Poverty Law Center would give up race baiting and teaching our youth to be victims and beholding to organizations claiming to be the only thing that keeps then from the planation and grow a pair, and instead celebrate the victories and inspire pride by hanging the symbol of their vanquished enemies in every office as a war trophy. But no. They would rather have it a symbol of continuing oppression to be feared if not for organizations like theirs.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Really? Only if you prefer to be a victim or perpetually offended by anything you disagree with (and I don't think that is you). If the leadership of the NAACP and Southern Poverty Law Center would give up race baiting and teaching our youth to be victims and beholding to organizations claiming to be the only thing that keeps then from the planation and grow a pair, and instead celebrate the victories and inspire pride by hanging the symbol of their vanquished enemies in every office as a war trophy. But no. They would rather have it a symbol of continuing oppression to be feared if not for organizations like theirs.

Yeah, really. Your suggestion is absurd and about as realistic as a synagogue using Nazi symbols to inspire pride. Cite Goodwin's Law on me but it is an apt comparison.

As for the Southern Poverty Law Center, at least they were one of the few pointing out that groups like the Council of Conservative Citizens were still spreading hate instead of trying defend them or court them for votes like some did until a few years ago.
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I see nothing inconsistent with removing the flag from official buildings and teaching African Americans that it was removed not because it was offensive but because it was the flag of a defeated enemy both in the form of the CSA, and Jim Crow. Something we should all celebrate.

Slavery was a horrible injustice and a crime against humanity in it's own right. There was terrorism, cruelty and murder in it's administration to be sure. But it wasn't genocide. A comparison yes. Maybe worthy of debate in another venue. But not so apt, IMHO.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
FWIW, Skipper just knocked it out of the park. I really have nothing else to add on top of this.

http://www.askskipper.com/2015/06/24/its-time-we-have-an-honest-talk-about-this/

Skipper said:
. . . I don’t believe that everyone with a Confederate flag on the back window of their pickup truck is a racist. I believe some of them are. I believe the rest have a misguided view of what heritage means and have failed to consider the perspective of those who don’t look upon that era with such fondness. Shackles, bondage, beatings and oppression can have that effect. It is time we move away from that darkness, and not back toward it.
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
I'm curious, how many of the responders here actually grew up in the South? Flash is the only one who's acknowledged living there (other than everyone's time in flight school).

I did grow up in the south, in the "sticks" of eastern Tennessee. I lived on a dirt road in a four room house, a barrel of rainwater outside to flush the toilet, and no phone till I was about 12. I started working in a tobacco field when I was 6. I am the epitome of a dirt-poor white trash redneck.

Down the road from me was a black family whose kids I played in the woods with and would go fishing with. I hate fishing by the way, but it was something to do and someone to spend time with. They were just as poor, and they gave no shits about me being white nor I about them being black.

I went to school and played sports with black kids while growing up.

The Confederate flag flew quite a bit where I grew up. It wasn't a symbol of racism, the people I grew up around were a mix of white and black and we all had to work hard to put food on the table. Where I grew up, the Confederate flag was a symbol of a people who had to work hard to get by in life. It represented the legacy of hard living in the mountains of Tennessee, where food on the table was scarce and a warm bed to sleep in wasn't always guaranteed.

What's my point? It's this. Symbols mean different things to different people. Some people will be offended by things that others aren't offended by. I'm not a racist yet an image of the Confederate flag makes me think of home and appreciate how I grew up. People will probably get all butthurt about me saying a Confederate flag reminds me of home, but it's true, and it's not because it makes me think of racism.

Bottom line, appeasing everyone in life only ends up with everyone being angry at the outcome. People can disagree and still move forward in life.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
I'm glad that you found something positive in the Confederate flag, but the fact remains that it was flown as a symbol of violent rebellion against the United States. In light of that, it is entirely inappropriate for a state government to fly or acknolwedge that flag. Had the colonies lost the revolution, we would not be flying the stars and stripes above our government buildings, either.

Anyone who flies the Confederate flag is sending the message that they would rather not be part of America. To that I say you are welcome to leave. It's particularly telling that the rallying cry with the flag is "The South will rise again," implying that there will one day be a Civil War part 2.

The whole 'states rights' call is mostly a myth. It was specifically for the right for states to secede in order to preserve slavery; the Confederate Constitution actually removed several other states rights contained in the U.S. Constitution and added none. In that way, the flag is also directly tied to the support of slavery similar to how the Nazi flag is tied to the belief of Arian superiority and the holocaust. You can't separate the two through revisionist history.

Now, I do acknowledge that the motivation of the soldiers in an army might not be the same as the political cause of the government. Unfortunately, the interpretation that goes down in history is that of the political leadership's aims, not the soldier with a rifle. The fact that a soldier in the Confederate Army might have viewed the flag as a symbol of protecting his homeland against northern aggression doesn't change the actual political aims of the war. Ultimately, I think that the controversy comes from the fact that most people don't want to be known as 'the bad guys.' Because the motivation of the soldier on the front line is often different than that of the government, I think we can honor those who fought bravely for their own reasons without putting revision on the political aims of the Confederacy.
 
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