Spy vs Ready Room (1 v Many)

[DanMa1156]

We had an intel-O once that really got on us about security management, numbering and accountability of every document, every page, etc. Someone eventually started taking burned DVDs of movies and putting various classifications such as "UNCLASS//REL TO USA, FVEY"on them, others had "SECRET//NOFORN" crossed out with the replacement text under it "Now Andy's Copy of Forgetting Sarah Marshall" and so on. UNCLASS, CONFIDENTIAL, and SECRET stickers too.

He did not find it amusing whatsoever which he had to have known would only add to our humor instead of lightening up a little bit on his end.

 

[cfam]

Regarding the spy, this just proves the perils of being trained by the Air Force to do intel. I know a former Tomcat squadron AI who was very successful (he tells me) in the ready room being an AOCS grad who didn’t take himself too seriously. He has a great sense of humor and is still in Navy intel today as a senior GS. His call sign is... not flattering, but he wears it still today as a badge of honor.

Ehhh, I would make the case that the majority of the Air Force Intel officers that I've encountered have been more knowledgeable and better qualified than their Navy counterparts. In my opinion, the Air Force does a much better job of training their Intel Os to a standard and ensuring that they understand the employment considerations and intelligence requirements for their squadron's platform.

As an example: the Air Force created the 19th Weapons Squadron (their Intel Weapons School unit) back in 1987, while the Navy just finally got around to creating NIWDC in 2017. I will admit a certain level of bias given that most of the AF Intel Os I've worked with have been patch wearers, but the overall point still stands.

Plus, in Heyjoe's story, it wouldn't have mattered if the Intel O was Air Force or Navy trained. The practice of sending newly minted Intel Os to fleet squadrons has always been stupid, because (with a few exceptions), this story is a typical result. The squadron ends up with an Intel O who doesn't have the requisite threat knowledge to truly contribute, so they spend a good chunk of their tour either trying to catch up or being relegated to doing security administrative work.

 

[zipmartin]

I remember Chuck as being a good stick, not lacking in self-confidence, and going prematurely bald......not necessarily in that order. And he had a boat and took me skiing once. ?

 

[nodropinufaka]

Ehhh, I would make the case that the majority of the Air Force Intel officers that I've encountered have been more knowledgeable and better qualified than their Navy counterparts. In my opinion, the Air Force does a much better job of training their Intel Os to a standard and ensuring that they understand the employment considerations and intelligence requirements for their squadron's platform.

As an example: the Air Force created the 19th Weapons Squadron (their Intel Weapons School unit) back in 1987, while the Navy just finally got around to creating NIWDC in 2017. I will admit a certain level of bias given that most of the AF Intel Os I've worked with have been patch wearers, but the overall point still stands.

Plus, in Heyjoe's story, it wouldn't have mattered if the Intel O was Air Force or Navy trained. The practice of sending newly minted Intel Os to fleet squadrons has always been stupid, because (with a few exceptions), this story is a typical result. The squadron ends up with an Intel O who doesn't have the requisite threat knowledge to truly contribute, so they spend a good chunk of their tour either trying to catch up or being relegated to doing security administrative work.

sending intel officers to squadron is dumb.

It really isn’t what Navy intel officers do. Once you do your two years in the squadron and show up to a MIOC and then COCOM Staff watch you realize that the squadron intel is .01 percent of an intel officers career path and knowledge.

the proposed wayof fixing it I saw in recent years was:

No squadron AIs. Air Wing gets all of them with an O5 in charge of them figuring out how to best use them.

The 1830 community was sick and tired of sending an AI over and the squadron using him to fill up collateral duties and do jobs like Security Management, EKMS, etc when shore side. They’d rather consolidate all and make them work together in an intel cell then go underway and support.

Don’t know whatever happened to that but it was a step in the right direction.

 

[cfam]

sending intel officers to squadron is dumb.

It really isn’t what Navy intel officers do. Once you do your two years in the squadron and show up to a MIOC and then COCOM Staff watch you realize that the squadron intel is .01 percent of an intel officers career path and knowledge.

the proposed wayof fixing it I saw in recent years was:

No squadron AIs. Air Wing gets all of them with an O5 in charge of them figuring out how to best use them.

The 1830 community was sick and tired of sending an AI over and the squadron using him to fill up collateral duties and do jobs like Security Management, EKMS, etc when shore side. They’d rather consolidate all and make them work together in an intel cell then go underway and support.

Don’t know whatever happened to that but it was a step in the right direction.

I partially agree with you. I think that there is still a place for Intel Os in aviation, but the Intel community needs to either create a separate career track for them and educate them appropriately or at a minimum provide them multiple aviation tours during career progression to make targeted training worthwhile. I’d envision something like the targeteer community as an example.

Having Intel Os in a squadron is a plus, because it forces the Intel Os to understand the communities that they support. There are far too many Intel Os who have only served on staffs or in NIOCs and forget that their community exists to support other communities.

 

[Hair Warrior]

@cfam @nodropinufaka

Copy all. I know several USAF intel O's and they've all been outstanding. I was more joking for the sake of inter-service rivalry.

I do know that USAF intel O's specialize in a field of intelligence, while naval intelligence officers are encouraged to be generalists and touch different disciplines over the course of a long career (although some still specialize).

W/r/t Navy squadron AIs, my understanding from RUMINT at the schoolhouse is that the IWC tried to cut all the AI billets and bring them back to the naval intelligence mothership, but big Naval Aviation wanted to keep those AIs in each squadron and ponied-up the billets to do so. So there may be some "drug deal" (all above board of course) that keeps an AI 1830 in each aviation squadron.

Whether this is to...

1. create a flock of aviation-friendly 1830s who have greater affinity and familiarity with naval aviation throughout their brown-shoe'd intel careers, including to properly pipeline qualified officers into CAG AI and/or NAWDC positions later in their careers,
2. keep some FNGs around the squadrons to take on thankless collateral duties that would otherwise go to 13XXs,
3. bring a different perspective and skill set into the ready room,
4. have an extra ENS or LTJG FITREP so the squadron CO can regularly reset his or her RSA a bit without tanking anyone's career,
5. some combination of the above,
6. something else/ none of above,

...I dunno.

Maybe Brett, Farva, or another CO can provide insight.

 

[cfam]

@cfam @nodropinufaka

Copy all. I know several USAF intel O's and they've all been outstanding. I was more joking for the sake of inter-service rivalry.

I do know that USAF intel O's specialize in a field of intelligence, while naval intelligence officers are encouraged to be generalists and touch different disciplines over the course of a long career (although some still specialize).

W/r/t Navy squadron AIs, my understanding from RUMINT at the schoolhouse is that the IWC tried to cut all the AI billets and bring them back to the naval intelligence mothership, but big Naval Aviation wanted to keep those AIs in each squadron and ponied-up the billets to do so. So there may be some "drug deal" (all above board of course) that keeps an AI 1830 in each aviation squadron.

Whether this is to...

1. create a flock of aviation-friendly 1830s who have greater affinity and familiarity with naval aviation throughout their brown-shoe'd intel careers, including to properly pipeline qualified officers into CAG AI and/or NAWDC positions later in their careers,
2. keep some FNGs around the squadrons to take on thankless collateral duties that would otherwise go to 13XXs,
3. bring a different perspective and skill set into the ready room,
4. have an extra ENS or LTJG FITREP so the squadron CO can regularly reset his or her RSA a bit without tanking anyone's career,
5. some combination of the above,
6. something else/ none of above,

...I dunno.

Maybe Brett, Farva, or another CO can provide insight.

Gotcha. You're completely right about the generalist vs. specialist point, but from the cheap seats it seems like Navy Intel has gone too general, and unnecessarily degraded the quality of your standard Intel O as a result. I've worked with CAG AIs and IWCs who weren't remotely conversant with Airwing capabilities and limitations, and that just hurts everyone involved.

To your second point, I really wouldn't be surprised at all. We had a rockstar second tour Intel O on staff with me in Fallon, and he was fully aware of how "staying in aviation" for multiple tours looked to the larger Intel community. That being said, having him on staff was a godsend, and he alone was able to help advance our TTPs by being one of the smartest guys there on adversary TTPs and thought processes. I just wish that big Intel would apply a little more common sense and allow for specialization where required. The Intel O I mentioned got called back to the mothership and now is on a watch floor, which is a huge loss for our community.

For the rationale, I'm not sure either, but I would lean more towards option 1, or the simple fact that a hard charging Intel O can be an asset to the ready room if they can handle the steep learning curve.

I should've mentioned it before, but I think an easy fix (given the current model) would be to do one (or more) of the following:

1. Staff squadron AI billets with second tour Intel Os. AIs would still have a learning curve, but they'd have a bit more big-Navy experience under their belt to help out.
2. Regardless of timing, provide newly arrived squadron AIs with a spin-up syllabus run by the type-wing weapons school. In VAQ-land, there's already an Intel syllabus contained in ARP, so the precedent has been set for targeted Intel training.
3. Structure squadron AI relief timing to guarantee a multiple month overlap to provide some on the job training.

 

[nodropinufaka]

.....I’d envision something like the targeteer community as an example.

Having Intel Os in a squadron is a plus, because it forces the Intel Os to understand the communities that they support.

Yes. That’s what needs to be done. If they want them to do aviation for their career then let them and separate the tracks.

But to your point of Intel Os supporting communities. That is a major misconception. Cause when you get above tactical level units and hit a watch at a COCOM or the five sided puzzle palace you’re not really supporting any community. You’re making slides everyday for 4 stars and that encompasses so much you don’t have a need to understand tactical level nuances.

It isn’t community support or anything specific. It’s a totally different ball game and usually has little to do with navy units.

The right way to fix it would be make separate career tracks within intel- aviation, NSW, MDA, etc.

But too little people.

 

[taxi1]

No squadron AIs. Air Wing gets all of them with an O5 in charge of them figuring out how to best use them.

Did a drone mission where we trained up the intel guys as "mission commanders" and they ran the show, subject to the AVO keeping them within limits. Lots of discussion about which parts of the mission we would need to retain in uniform (ultimately, intel), and which parts could be contracted out to the lowest bidder (stick monkey). The intel bubbas we had loved being in charge, and did well.

My rec would be some sort of special AI Aviation wings that they have to bust their ass to earn. People will do anything for some sort of wings.

 

[cfam]

Yes. That’s what needs to be done. If they want them to do aviation for their career then let them and separate the tracks.

But to your point of Intel Os supporting communities. That is a major misconception. Cause when you get above tactical level units and hit a watch at a COCOM or the five sided puzzle palace you’re not really supporting any community. You’re making slides everyday for 4 stars and that encompasses so much you don’t have a need to understand tactical level nuances.

It isn’t community support or anything specific. It’s a totally different ball game and usually has little to do with navy units.

The right way to fix it would be make separate career tracks within intel- aviation, NSW, MDA, etc.

But too little people.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that I didn't understand the distinction, although my wording could have been clearer. My point was more that it is a bit of a waste to allow someone to become an expert in a certain area and then move them out of that area for the sake of being generalist. I could be wrong, but I've always had the impression that once you get to a certain point as an Intel O (read making briefing slides in the Pentagon), that the service specific nature of each branch's Intel community tends to go by the wayside.

 

[nodropinufaka]

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that I didn't understand the distinction, although my wording could have been clearer. My point was more that it is a bit of a waste to allow someone to become an expert in a certain area and then move them out of that area for the sake of being generalist. I could be wrong, but I've always had the impression that once you get to a certain point as an Intel O (read making briefing slides in the Pentagon), that the service specific nature of each branch's Intel community tends to go by the wayside.

Pretty much. Once you hit O2 or O3 and start working at a COCOM it’s no longer service specific

 

[LET73]

Having Intel Os in a squadron is a plus, because it forces the Intel Os to understand the communities that they support.

Does it, though? It definitely can, but that really depends on the Intel O. There's really no forcing function in intel training or anywhere else to get new 1830s to learn blue force operations, which means that they've got to be proactive about it. Some are, others not so much.

I agree that the intel JOs would do better as part of the airwing staff, where they'd have a better chance to get some direct mentorship. Just as there's no guarantee an 1830 ENS will make a good squadron AI, there's no guarantee an 1830 LCDR will be the kind of CAG AI who can train and mentor those JOs. I don't think the current setup does anyone any favors (except for the pilot who'd get stuck with SSO duties if the 1830s got pulled from squadrons, I guess).

 

[Hair Warrior]

My rec would be some sort of special AI Aviation wings that they have to bust their ass to earn. People will do anything for some sort of wings.

^ Naval Observer Badge

Was the drone a Scan Eagle, MQ-8, something else, or you prefer not to say?

Honestly, just give your AI a chance to work hard to earn a G-1, a bag, and some hours in the backseat, and they’ll be happy to work hard for those. We already have a warfare pin and don’t need another. Plenty of Intel O’s already have multiple warfare pins, whether from enlisted service, naval parachutist badge, or previous officer designator.

IWTC-VB has aviation-specific recce and strike curricula already as part of NIOBC and reserve NIOBC. Intel O’s assigned to NAWDC get even more as part of their 3A2 and 3A1 schooling and quals.

Could NIOBC be enhanced with extra training for AIs? Sure, anything can with more time and money. But not for me to say the status quo is adequate/inadequate.

 

[ea6bflyr]

Does it, though? It definitely can, but that really depends on the Intel O. There's really no forcing function in intel training or anywhere else to get new 1830s to learn blue force operations, which means that they've got to be proactive about it. Some are, others not so much.

I agree that the intel JOs would do better as part of the airwing staff, where they'd have a better chance to get some direct mentorship. Just as there's no guarantee an 1830 ENS will make a good squadron AI, there's no guarantee an 1830 LCDR will be the kind of CAG AI who can train and mentor those JOs. I don't think the current setup does anyone any favors (except for the pilot who'd get stuck with SSO duties if the 1830s got pulled from squadrons, I guess).

That's true for ALL designators. No guarantees...none.

 

[Flash]

^ Naval Observer Badge

Was the drone a Scan Eagle, MQ-8, something else, or you prefer not to say?

You actually have to fly to get that one, a minimum of 200 hours last I checked. Paging @FlyinSpy!