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Spice

scoober78

(HCDAW)
pilot
Contributor
schoolbubba: Same question for you I asked of phrog above.

Unless you want "more knife hands" as your official answer.


Since I brought it up, I'll respond as well...

While generally, Phrog et al and I are on the same page...I'll add some points.

Nobody in the Navy today is doing Spice because they haven't been made aware of two things: 1. It's use is prohibited 2. It can have serious health consequences. Having been made aware of those two things, they made a conscious decision to continue their course of action and use bath salts. A lack of information isn't the problem and hence, my problem with this PSA. Want to make a PSA that's worth a shit? Have someone sit down in front of the camera, say "Look, we DO test routinely for these drugs. We WILL catch you. We WILL throw your ass to the curb, and you will have to explain your Administrative or OTH Discharge on every job application you fill out." Interview people who've gotten thrown out for drug abuse and been unable to find jobs and are regretting their choices...Show pictures of the guy who had his face eaten off by a guy on bath salts...

Still decide to take it? Fine. Enjoy cleaning shitters on restriction and half pay after reduction for two months prior to your ADSEP. Have a nice day.

I'll ask you Sir, what point does that PSA address that you think will be effective in preventing Bath Salt use?
 

ea6bflyr

Working Class Bum
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I think the DON (& DOD) should do more about suicide prevention.

I was in the Navy of the 80's and illicit drug use was rampant. I mean RAMPANT! I remember calling the Master-At-Arms because some dude was smoking dope in my berthing cube. He said "Don't worry about it dude...it's just a little pot." WRONG. He was smoking right before going up to the flight deck. Smart, no way. He went to mast and was put on drug surveillance for 6-months (3 strikes and your out...the Navy's answer to drug use). If someone is going to use illicit drugs, no amount of "training" is going to stop them. Not until the Navy established a "ZERO TOLERANCE" policy did they really address the rampant drug use in the Navy. Hell, I found a bag of weed rolling down the flight deck on my first deployment in 1984. I went to the starboard catwalk and dumped it out. The Navy is trying to lead the turn on the newest drug..Anyone remember when Ecstasy was the new drug? What did the Navy do about it?

R1, remember those old days?

This video is the first step of identifying the issues....

-ea6bflyr ;)
 

scoober78

(HCDAW)
pilot
Contributor
This video is the first step of identifying the issues....

-ea6bflyr ;)

Respectfully, no, it's not. The Navy has been aware of these issues for several years, has been testing for it just as long and has been talking about Spice in GMT/recurrent training for AT LEAST 2-3 years. It's not new. I believe it was early 2011 when several (8 or so?) VAQ-129 sailors popped positive for Spice and were processed...(Brett/Flash/Recovering LSO, back me up here on numbers etc...)
 

ea6bflyr

Working Class Bum
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Respectfully, no, it's not. The Navy has been aware of these issues for several years, has been testing for it just as long and has been talking about Spice in GMT/recurrent training for AT LEAST 2-3 years. It's not new. I believe it was early 2011 when several (8 or so?) VAQ-129 sailors popped positive for Spice and were processed...(Brett/Flash/Recovering LSO, back me up here on numbers etc...)
Okay, maybe not identifying, more like defining the problem to the sailors.
 

Recovering LSO

Suck Less
pilot
Contributor
Just too easy to throw the buck "upstairs" and mock best intended efforts

Am I in the wrong thread or does "we have enough laws and rules on the books as it - we need better enforcement" seem to apply here as well?

It's NOT throwing the buck upstairs. It's throwing a BRICK upstairs and begging Big Navy to let local Commanders, well, command. Big Navy leadership has this whole process so screwed up it's embarrassing. I'm surprised they haven't come up with an anti-bath salt app or FB page.

Take a good look at the Navy's Spice instruction. You'll have to get a CO/XO/CMC to show you the one in a safe... If you don't know what I'm talking about, go ask your XO tomorrow.

Let local Commanders make command decisions - use some of that "special trust and confidence".
 

pourts

former Marine F/A-18 pilot & FAC, current MBA stud
pilot
That PSA seems kind of funny actually. Most of the AFN ads are horrible, and I think I have most of them memorized by now, so I welcome any addition to the current programming.
 

phrogpilot73

Well-Known Member
How are YOU handling the problem?
Therein lies the crux. What is the problem? If you don't pause and identify what the problem is, all you are is throwing money/time at treating the symptoms rather than the cause.

Bath salts is not the problem. Neither is Spice, Ecstasy, Marijuana, Meth, Heroin, etc... Every single solitary member of the military in this day and age knows the DoD's stance on legal/illegal drug use. Making a PSA about what it's like to use it is only addressing the symptoms, not the problem. What is the problem you ask?

I would argue that the true problem we are faced with is morale. There are many, many causes leading to the morale problems that are across the DoD - some controllable by small unit leadership, some not.

Are there morale problems when forward deployed? Yes, but no more so than the standard missing home, etc. The big difference between now and then is that they are offset by the fact that Sailors/Marines are actually doing their job, for real. Sailors and Marines that are deployed are fired up that they get to do their job, accomplish the mission, and make a difference. Then they come home. And the pace doesn't change. And when given an opportunity to let their hair down - they're lectured about others that are currently forward deployed and can't. Or that there is a need to prepare for the next deployment. Because that one Sailor is the lynchpin that keeps the entire DoN from falling completely apart. Throw in being treated with less respect/trust/confidence than when he was in high school/college (aka mandatory breathalyzers, feel good safety lectures/requirements, etc) and the morale keeps going into the shitter.

Can small unit leaders control the OPTEMPO? Nope. Not anymore than they can control the behavior of someone who KNOWS that what he's doing is wrong/against numerous regulations, and does it anyway.

Can small unit leaders do anything to help increase the morale of their Sailors/Marines? Yes. I try to everyday. But I can only do so much.

Case in point: My reserve squadron has no deployment on the horizon at all. AT ALL. Yet, the active duty guys are routinely working 28 days without a day off. Why? To make the board turn from red to green. Because other guys are forward deployed. Because we have to be ready. These are all statements that have come out of the mouth of our squadron and group CO.

Then they stand around and scratch their head and wonder why guys get caught smoking weed in the barracks. Must be a weed problem! They scratch their head and wonder why dudes are drinking underage. Must be a drinking problem! They scratch their head and wonder why we're at 50% or less on A/C availability. Must be we're not working enough!

MAYBE the morale is so in the shitter that they don't care anymore. For the guys that got caught smoking weed in the barracks - it was a shock for most of us. They weren't our typical 10%'ers. I honestly believe they were looking for an escape from what has become reality. They got shitcanned, so the cycle finally stopped for them. But the cycle is still there - so it's only a matter of time before something else like that happens.

MAYBE if the COs would take a step back and notice that when they had comp days for a drill weekend, worked reasonable hours, were given random days off to spend with their family, etc. that there were no "drug problems" there were no "drinking problems" there were no "maintenance problems". Back in those days (several COs ago), we had 98% A/C availability. We had the random drug pop - not the "someone's going to pop, I wonder who" that we have now.

MAYBE if the COs would actually listen to the officers in the squadron, rather than dismissing our recommendations/advice immediately without any discussion, there would be less of a problem.

Instead, I get my nuts crushed because I send a Marine home early (who's trying to get his personal affairs in order before a PCS).

Make no mistake about it - you will not hear me haul up the bullshit flag about a PSA/effort on higher's part to address an actual problem that I think will do some good. Case in point - the Marine Corps' Semper Ride initiative. What was the problem? Marines killing themselves on motorcycles. What does the Marine Corps do? In addition to the MSF required courses (which are good, but I don't think the mandatory training timelines are realistic - 90 days after you start riding your bike after the BRC - you are NOT ready for the ERC/SRC), they went above and beyond. They dumped a ton of money into having the X-Games producers make a short movie (it's about 20 minutes long) filled with famous riders (guys that young Marines identify with) demonstrating/talking about motorcycle safety. They organized the motorcycle clubs (where during the workday, your appointed place of duty is an enjoyable ride/lunch with the other motorcycle riders in the unit). They worked with Keith Code to help offset the cost of his superbike school for Marines that want to attend. Etc, etc, etc...


When I was the ASO, part of the BITS safety standdown was motorcycle safety. I showed the video instead of just standing up there talking, covered the motorcycle club and a couple of things when I did talk. And what happened? A couple things - senior leadership came and told me I was an idiot, that young Marines were going to watch the video and try it this weekend. What REALLY happened? Marines kept coming up to me, looking to try some of the things (superbike schools, dirt tracks/schools) they saw in the video, realizing that these professionals might actually know what they were talking about. We've had exactly one motorcycle accident since that video - and it was mine (after some guy ran a red light, and I couldn't stop in time).

However, I still think that this PSA about bath salts is stupid.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Am I in the wrong thread or does "we have enough laws and rules on the books as it - we need better enforcement" seem to apply here as well?

It's NOT throwing the buck upstairs. It's throwing a BRICK upstairs and begging Big Navy to let local Commanders, well, command. Big Navy leadership has this whole process so screwed up it's embarrassing. I'm surprised they haven't come up with an anti-bath salt app or FB page.


Take a good look at the Navy's Spice instruction. You'll have to get a CO/XO/CMC to show you the one in a safe... If you don't know what I'm talking about, go ask your XO tomorrow.

Let local Commanders make command decisions - use some of that "special trust and confidence".

Don't forget about the new TAP requirements. I know there were several individuals who were being kicked out and just days away from it happening and then the TAP reqs came out and now they get another free 6 months of paycheck until they can get into the course.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Do you realize how f'ing annoying it is to get rid of a guy who pops for anything?
FTFY. Mando processing for an OTH for any drug pop means all the guy has to do is request an admin board to tie up three officers' and ESPECIALLY the Legal O's time on the way out the door. Have some baby JAG roll in on your UPC (hope his program is in order), expend half a ream of paper, and wait for the Admiral to give you the A-OK to boot the kid . . .
 

Renegade One

Well-Known Member
None
Since I brought it up, I'll respond as well...

While generally, Phrog et al and I are on the same page...I'll add some points.

Nobody in the Navy today is doing Spice because they haven't been made aware of two things: 1. It's use is prohibited 2. It can have serious health consequences. Having been made aware of those two things, they made a conscious decision to continue their course of action and use bath salts. A lack of information isn't the problem and hence, my problem with this PSA. Want to make a PSA that's worth a shit? Have someone sit down in front of the camera, say "Look, we DO test routinely for these drugs. We WILL catch you. We WILL throw your ass to the curb, and you will have to explain your Administrative or OTH Discharge on every job application you fill out." Interview people who've gotten thrown out for drug abuse and been unable to find jobs and are regretting their choices...Show pictures of the guy who had his face eaten off by a guy on bath salts...

Still decide to take it? Fine. Enjoy cleaning shitters on restriction and half pay after reduction for two months prior to your ADSEP. Have a nice day.

I'll ask you Sir, what point does that PSA address that you think will be effective in preventing Bath Salt use?
I like your "screenplay" for another video every bit as much as the one OP posted, although I only see yours being used "inside the lifelines". Like I said…multi-faceted approach. Maybe the original PSA does nothing more than alert the young wives or significant others of "Spice users" as to what they're potentially living with. That alone might be of value…assuming they have some influence on off-duty behaviors.
I have no bright ideas on the subject myself, you understand...
 

phrogpilot73

Well-Known Member
Mando processing for an OTH for any drug pop means all the guy has to do is request an admin board to tie up three officers' and ESPECIALLY the Legal O's time on the way out the door. Have some baby JAG roll in on your UPC (hope his program is in order), expend half a ream of paper, and wait for the Admiral to give you the A-OK to boot the kid . . .
Truth. As someone who had to be the senior officer of an admin board for just that, it's a pain in the ass. Not to mention, once you really get into the SEPSMAN, you realize that the kids should get a general vice OTH (and the rest of the board agrees), then you have to justify to higher why...
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
Why should anyone other than a Medical Discharge, Honorable Discharge or Retirement get TAP?

Not that TAP is that great, but if you are enough of a fucktard to get a DD, OTH or BCD.. GTFO and be happy if you DIVO drops you off at the Groundhog station.
 

robav8r

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
I would argue that the true problem we are faced with is morale. There are many, many causes leading to the morale problems that are across the DoD - some controllable by small unit leadership, some not.

Phrog - I'm waiving the Bullshit flag on this. Bad Sailors do bad things and break the rules everyday regardless of what their "morale" is. I have seen Sailors pushed to the limit in a bunch of different operating environments - but it has never been, nor will it ever be, an excuse to "get high." BTW - Bath Salts are a real bitch for Big Navy right now - you can't test for it with a urinalysis.
 
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