Space Launch Party

[Markham]

Hey guys!

This may be a little out of the way, but I think it's doable for anyone
from NYC or Detroit who really wants to make it out:

My spacecraft's doing a rollout here in Toronto, on Thursday the 29th.
I've been working on this project for years, and we're finally getting
towards launch time. It's the capsule, complete with avionics, and the
aeroshell and structural components of the rocket body. Big public
event, media frenzy, and free food.

As aerospace buffs, some of you've probably been following the X-Prize
and Rutan's launch a month ago. If not, check out xprize.com, space.com
or cnn.com for info. But we're building a three-man reusable, suborbital
spacecraft. Reaches about 100km, straight up.

The more the merrier at the party.

Give me a shout if you need directions, etc.

Markham

 

[TANGO 1]

when can you video the launchg and put in on the forum. I will be glad to watch it. As for making it down to your end. I don't think time will permit.

 

[Markham]

Sorry if the title mislead you there Tango. The rollout is going to be our
mostly-completed ship, minus the rocket core (which we are building),
for publicity purposes.

We've been making it into the Wallstreet Journal and getting other media
exposure; this roll-out showing that we're ready to launch within a couple
months is a means of cranking it up and getting the last of the funds we
need to get to launch. We're pretty damn low budget, and we're on track
for paying our bills to fly the frigging thing, but this is our last chance to
capitalize on attention from Rutan's launch.

So, this is not an actual launch date. We're showing off our ship, with
avionics, aeroshell, and most of our thrust-structure complete.
Global media, Q&A, and party.

And yes, I'll upload footage after launch. It's going to be in the Fall, and you
can catch it on TV too. That one's going to be tougher to actually get to
though: it's in Saskatchewan. Think North Dakota, and go north by another
couple Dakota's.

 

[vegita1220]

Oh man Mike W that's an AWESOME avatar!

$hit, drool shorted out my keyboard!

 

[Whalebite]

Are you guys going for the X Prize? As far as I know Rutan didn't launch 2x in 2 weeks so he'd have to do another 2 to win it before the end of the year. Do you think you'll have a shot at making it before Rutan descides to go for it? If so this could be a real race in the pits getting ready. Rather exciting, I'm sure you are. Are you on the Canadian Arrow team? Isn't there a 10% non fuel weight replacement max for the prize requirement? How are you getting around this with a rocket? Is it 2 stages both recoverable? You using solid fuel?
Good luck!

 

[Markham]

Yes, we're going for the X-Prize, and no, Rutan hasn't won it. From my understanding he needed some significant upgrades to carry three people, though he did pull off the altitude required for winning the prize.

Yes, you're only allowed to replace 10% of the non-propellant mass between launches. We're flying a hybrid rocket, carried aloft to 80k ft by a helium balloon. You might think that would help us with the limited amount of material in a balloon envelope compared to the weight of the volume of gas, but it doesn't. The entire system, the capsule, the rocket block, and the balloon envelope needs to be recovered and reused. The biggest problem with the 10% rule is the balloon envelope tearing.

No, we're not the Canadian Arrow, we're the DaVinci Project. I haven't talked directly to Geoff Sheerin from that team in a couple years, but I've heard it rumoured that they've got a chance of launching before the end of the year. Call me biased, but I'm much more optimistic about my own team launching before Rutan.

 

[Markham]

Update:

Don't know if any of you were actually planning
to make it out next week, but it's been bumped.
Had some problems glassing the aeroshell, gave
ourselves some breathing space by moving the
rollout to the fourth of next month.

We managed to get the date changed with the
media in time, except Wired, which published
something about this week by mistake.

 

[mrmorris]

DaVinci Project engine

Markham:

I hadn't paid much attention to the DaVinci Project as an X-Prize compettitor before the July 27th X-Prize press conference was pre-announced, but I've made up for it since by spending **way** too much time looking through the data that's out on the website.

I'm puzzled by the Hybrid engines though. The "da Vinci Space Project Mission Analysis(pdf)" file on the DaVinci site talks a bit about the engine and has a photo of a test firing and a second of the nozzle. The photos are from the website of Environmental Aerospace Corporation (www.hybrids.com) -- specifically their Hyperion II project. However -- the Hyperion II is a small sub-orbital sounding rocket, and the engine in no way would be powerful enough for WF6. This is further confirmed by the difference in the thrust levels mentioned for it (5000 lbs) vs what is mentioned in the PDF file (15,000 lbs).

I searched eAc's site for an engine with 15,000 lbs unsuccessfully. Even the engine they developed for Rutan's ship only provided 10,000 lbs of thrust. So -- if eAc is the supplier -- do they have an engine that provides ~50% more thrust than what was built for SS1, or what?

 

[Markham]

Hybrid Engines aren't stock

Mrmorris:

Thanks for the interest in the project. It's different
having people not smile and nod when I talk about
the project these days.

No, Eac is not providing us with the engine. Our
design is in-house and the production location isn't for public consumption.

I'm not sure what Eac is able to produce.

I'm finally getting paid these days (now in my third
year on the project), but I've still got to finish my two
weeks notice at my other job. Double full-time-plus is a
b**ch, but if you want to know more I'll try and get
back to you.

I'm more structures than propulsion by the way, but
I can answer general questions that our fearless
leader hasn't banned disclosure on.

If you've got any suggestions for the website, I can
pass that along too.

 

[mrmorris]

No, Eac is not providing us with the engine. Our
design is in-house and the production location isn't for public consumption.

...

If you've got any suggestions for the website, I can
pass that along too.

Well the PDF file is from March of 2003, so changes aren't shocking. It states 'Several hundred test firings were performed by our engine supplier.' -- so obviously at that time the engine wasn't planned to be produced in-house. And the engine plans for Wildfire had changed before, of course. The LOX/Kerosene engines pictured test-firing in the gallery and mocked up on WF2 were those produced by Microcosm for their Scorpius SR-XM-1 suborbital rocket.

Creating the engines in-house is a big step, and an engine with 15,000 pounds of force (assuming that hasn't changed as well) is going to make for a real kick in the pants. WF6 is projected to have a comparable weight with SS1 (I've read ~3,000 pounds unfueled). Whereas SS1 engine is has ~10,000 pounds of force and fires for ~82 seconds, WF6 would have 15,000 and fire for 66 seconds.


As for the website. Other than the main page and the sponsers page -- nothing ever seems to get updated.
- The latest item on the 'News' tab is from October, 2003.
- The gallery contains no pictures of WF6 and still shows Nuytco Research Center as your space suit supplier (which was a bit weird in the first place, as they make deep-sea ocean diving equipment) even though the latest word is that you've picked up a russian suit from eBay.
- The Evolution page under Technical shows the Mark I through Mark V, but not the Mark VI.
- The Flight section under Technical still shows the 'Ballute' concept -- long since discarded.
- The Vehicle at-a-Glance specs under Technical-Vehicle is for the Mark II.

The only thing on the site that mentions WF6 is the PDF file under technical. Even that is from March of last year and contains obsolete information.