SNFO Primary...how long?

[dimlight85]

I couldn't really find where this was asked before but it probably has been. I found the threads on pipeline summaries for SNFO's but there weren't any amounts of time set to them and maybe for a reason. About how long does it take to complete Primary? Is it something that happens at whatever pace you can finish within reason and availability of equipment? From there what are the timelines to complete P-3 FRS, E-6 and so on...? Thanks for your help!

 

[ea6bflyr]

Here's your EXACT answer: depends.

The variables are Weather, Aircraft, Aircraft availability, Instructors, Sims, Money, fuel, and other students, just to name a few.

SNFO Primary @ PCOLA should take no more than 6 months*
SNFO Intermediate @ PCOLA another 3-6 months*.
SNFO Advanced @ PCOLA another 6-10 months*.
---
E-2/P-3 training usually takes about 10-12 months*.

*(depending the above listed vaiables)

-ea6bflyr

 

[MIDNJAC]

It took my old roomattes from P'cola from June until sometime in October to go from C-pool check in to selection out of primary. If I remember correctly the SNFO primary syllabus was just shortened from 4 months to 3 months....that was second-hand info from SNFO buddies so that may or may not be totally accurate. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC you pretty much progress with the rest of your "class" through the syllabus......it was my understanding that this was to a greater extent than we do in SNA primary.

 

[Hozer]

Here's the 155B syllabus instruction. (T-6 only)

9. Course Length. Overall time-to-train calculated in
accordance with CNATRAINST 1550.6E. Training Days account for
factors including weather, personnel and equipment availability,
briefing and preparation time, and historical delays. Calendar
Weeks further account for weekends, holidays, safety stand-downs,
and other expected nonworking days.

Training Days Calendar Weeks
a. Primary: 74 16.4
b. Intermediate: 17 3.7

link:
https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/pubs/folder2/1542.155B.pdf

After T-6's, I get you for another month in T-1's. I can tell you once you start in primary, we get you done within 2 weeks of your Time-to-Train, unless you are a problem child. Don't be a problem child.
The CNATRA website has your entire curriculum available.
Good luck.

 

[fc2spyguy]

Here's the 155B syllabus instruction. (T-6 only)

9. Course Length. Overall time-to-train calculated in
accordance with CNATRAINST 1550.6E. Training Days account for
factors including weather, personnel and equipment availability,
briefing and preparation time, and historical delays. Calendar
Weeks further account for weekends, holidays, safety stand-downs,
and other expected nonworking days.

Training Days Calendar Weeks
a. Primary: 74 16.4
b. Intermediate: 17 3.7

link:
https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/pubs/folder2/1542.155B.pdf

After T-6's, I get you for another month in T-1's. I can tell you once you start in primary, we get you done within 2 weeks of your Time-to-Train, unless you are a problem child. Don't be a problem child.
The CNATRA website has your entire curriculum available.
Good luck.

Hah, if that were the case for pilot I'd be finishing in February, instead I'm still trying to get my C4200 block started. Granted two weeks med down, but still . . .

 

[ea6bflyr]

Hah, if that were the case for pilot I'd be finishing in February, instead I'm still trying to get my C4200 block started. Granted two weeks med down, but still . . .

Ha, another variable.

-ea6bflyr

 

[Hozer]

Hah, if that were the case for pilot I'd be finishing in February, instead I'm still trying to get my C4200 block started. Granted two weeks med down, but still . . .

Can't speak for pilot training, but we definitely get you done here at TW-6.

Problem child includes med-downs. The reason? Production is measured in Time to Train. In Primary NFO, we only have 1.5 days allotted for med-down per the bean counters. We on the operational side understand that there's no way you can go med-down and get an up-chit in 1.5 days in many cases. The "formula" also assumes 100% aircraft availability at step time. How often is that happening these days?
The instructors work pretty hard to get a quality product out the door on time, but some of the lean-sigma six algorithyms can suck it.
It's also a matter of classing you back up and depending on your phase, there are certain "chokepoints" that are non-negotiable.

 

[fc2spyguy]

Aircraft availability at whiting is absolutely horrible. You can pretty much expect a plane wait if you're scheduled after 1000. I've been canceled numerous times due to aircraft availability, i've also had a several 3-6 hour plane waits.

 

[Hozer]

That's unfortunately why we increasingly rely on weekend x-countrys to get folks complete. Puts a lot on the student to digest and if the subject tubes a flight, then the whole x-cntry plan is for naught.

 

[ea6bflyr]

Can't speak for pilot training, but we definitely get you done here at TW-6.

Problem child includes med-downs. The reason? Production is measured in Time to Train. In Primary NFO, we only have 1.5 days allotted for med-down per the bean counters. We on the operational side understand that there's no way you can go med-down and get an up-chit in 1.5 days in many cases. The "formula" also assumes 100% aircraft availability at step time. How often is that happening these days?
The instructors work pretty hard to get a quality product out the door on time, but some of the lean-sigma six algorithyms can suck it.
It's also a matter of classing you back up and depending on your phase, there are certain "chokepoints" that are non-negotiable.

Hozer,
I think the FLT DOCS have devised a plan that when a student goes MED DOWN, they are placed on Hold, unless in ground school or doing sims....stopping the Time-to-train clock. I think all the TW-6 Docs are doing it this way now.

-ea6bflyr

 

[fc2spyguy]

Hozer,
I think the FLT DOCS have devised a plan that when a student goes MED DOWN, they are placed on Hold, unless in ground school or doing sims....stopping the Time-to-train clock. I think all the TW-6 Docs are doing it this way now.

-ea6bflyr

When I went med down it was during sims. I physically could have done them no problem. However, according to MPTS you are not allowed to do any graded event while in a med down status, not sure if it's different in NFO land though.

 

[Hozer]

Hozer,
I think the FLT DOCS have devised a plan that when a student goes MED DOWN, they are placed on Hold, unless in ground school or doing sims....stopping the Time-to-train clock. I think all the TW-6 Docs are doing it this way now.

-ea6bflyr

Oh yeah, you mean the guys that are at three different clinics now? I know they are trying, but they've got their hands full. When DOC's aren't in the squadron spaces, delays happen.

 

[MasterBates]

Flight docs are supposed to be in squadron spaces?

Granted I only have been in TRACOM and Det-Style helo squadrons for the last 7 years, but I have only seen flight docs in the squadron for the following:

Flights
HFC/HFB
Immunization "Drives"
AOM/AIMs

That's it.

Never seen a "clinic" or "doc hours". MAYBE if the doc was there for something else you could hit him up for meds or to sign an up-chit.

Are there supposed to be doc's hours or something?

 

[Hozer]

Tracoms of old had flt docs at least several days of the week in their squadron offices.
The Jax P-3 hangar had a medical staff in-house to include docs and dental types.
Our flt surgeon works his butt off, he just can't clone himself. Docs are obligated to spend a good portion of their time at the clinic serving the general population. Being the kool-aid drinker that I am, I understand that is the reality but the training formula doesn't account for it.

 

[Bster]

Time to Train is a Joke

Let's be honest. If you can stop the clock for this reason or that, then it's not really time to train. It's a myth. Bottom line is this: TTT should equal the total # of days you took to finish that block of training accounting for everything. The bean counters have it wrong when they are looking at just reducing the TTT number to as small as it can be and by messing it up by allowing for "holds" and other things that don't count. Our preceious Flight Doc Time (and yes in TW6 our Docs do more than just fly when they are in the spaces) should not be wasted doing admin drills to start and stop TTT clocks. What we have here is a failure in the system in which the bean counters data mis-management is starting to drive the boat vice the operators.