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Single-Pilot KC-46 ops in INDOPACOM?

ChuckMK23

FERS and TSP contributor!
pilot
Wasn’t this a key part of the Desert One failure? i.e. A helo that had a warning light come on and the pilots decided to turn the bird around? One of the helo crews apparently turned back when something in the cockpit indicated it may fail (but hadn’t faiked yet), leaving them one helo short when the mission proceeded.
I believe one of the primary hydraulic pumps are itself.

The bigger fail was the aircraft selected for the mission - which were all from HM-12. The CO of HM-12 when receiving the tasking order to transfer 8 of his aircraft to the newly formed TF, was so miffed at not being read in on the mission purposely selected the worst of the aircraft and maintenance spares to be sent on the mission. The Navy helicopter community incompetence on this mission was only beginning.
 

croakerfish

Well-Known Member
pilot
I believe one of the primary hydraulic pumps are itself.

The bigger fail was the aircraft selected for the mission - which were all from HM-12. The CO of HM-12 when receiving the tasking order to transfer 8 of his aircraft to the newly formed TF, was so miffed at not being read in on the mission purposely selected the worst of the aircraft and maintenance spares to be sent on the mission. The Navy helicopter community incompetence on this mission was only beginning.
Do you have any reading on this?
 

jmcquate

Well-Known Member
Contributor
I assume Eagle Claw was rehearsed a few times, and any aircraft issues would have been worked out. Joint operations weren't really a thing yet, and the mission had a lot of moving parts. If the mission hadn't failed when it did, it probably would have failed later with far worse consequences.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Do you have any reading on this?
Absolutely read:

Phoenix Rising: From the Ashes of Desert One to the Rebirth of U.S. Special Operations
By Keith Nightingale

I’ve met Keith and know two other D guys from the raid (one they called the “dark lord” the other a fabulously funny Native Hawaiian). It is a good read.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Also from the Official Report…

“Issue 10: The use of other helicopters”

Event. Initial study of the Iranian situation and forces available quickly led to the belief that a rescue attempt would require heavy-lift, long-range helicopters. On 19 November 1979, the CJCS approved development of a plan using helicopters. The RH-53D was selected after an in-depth review of available helicopter resources and their inherent capabilities.

JTF Rationale. Primary criteria for selection included range, payload, and ability to be positioned rapidly; i.e., airliftable. Other major considerations were suitability of candidate helicopters to carrier operations and OPSEC. Primary candidates for the rescue mission were the CH-46, CH-47, CH-53, RH-53, and HH-53 military helicopters. All were C-5 airliftable, but range and payload considerations favored the -53 series, of the latter, the RH-53D provided the best combination of range, payload, and shipboard compatibility.

Alternative. Selection of the RH-53D for all the reasons was correct. However, it has been contended that specially configured HH-53 helicopters should have been favorably considered as primary replacements. On the other hand, these specially equipped helicopters were just coming off the production line, only a handful of pilots were proficient in flying them and operating their sophisticated systems, and they carry less payload than the RH-53D. In addition, reliability and maintainability of such a sophisticated system was doubtful at this early stage of its introduction.

Implications. On the positive side, specially equipped helicopters would have markedly improved ability. Considering that at the time there was no practical alternatives to launching the helicopter force from a carrier, the negative implications of the group’s alternative are the deciding factor. An HH-53 helicopter will not fit into a carrier elevator or below decks without removal of its rotor blades—a procedure not recommended for daily operations. The option of leaving helicopters on decks is virtually infeasible [unfeasible?] because of the corrosive atmosphere; difficulty of maintenance; impact on carrier operations; and, above all, OPSEC. Logistic support of a relatively new and exotic weapon system would be further complicated by the additional delays in shipboard resupply.

Evaluation. During the planning process, the RH-53D emerged as the only helicopter with the full combination of operational capabilities upon which a feasible rescue plan could be structured.

AND…

“Issue 13: Established helicopter unit”

Event. Selection of the RH-53D helicopter for the rescue mission naturally led to selection of an RH-53D squadron as the unit to perform the mission.

JTF Rationale. The JTF selected a minesweeping helicopter squadron as the most expedient solution when it became evident the RH-53D was the helicopter to use.

Alternative. The group would marry up the appropriate helicopters and their maintenance capability with an operational unit compatible with mission requirements. When it was clear that RH-53D helicopters were required, selection of a USMC assault squadron would have facilitated training and in constructing a credible OPSEC cover story. If necessary, highly qualified pilots from other Services could have augmented the Marine squadron to bolster its capability. The main point is that the squadron’s institutional structure would be preserved; e.g., training, tactics, and standardization. Personnel performing and experienced in these functions would greatly enhance the unit’s ability to smoothly transition into its new role. Perhaps one of the key squadron staff functions referenced above would have perceived the Blade Inspection Method (BIM)-associated abort experienced during training as a major potential cause of abort during the mission and pursued the facts as the review group did. (See Issue 17.) Armed with knowledge of the circumstances surrounding BIM failures, the pilots of Helicopter #6 could have reached a more informed decision on the risk associated with continuing.

Evaluation. It is believed the preservation of an established squadron’s inherent unit cohesion could have facilitated training, enhanced information flow, and increased aircrew knowledge, all of which could lead to a more integrated unit operation. It cannot be demonstrated nor is it suggested that these factors would have altered the outcome. However, they would have enhanced training and more likely increased the chance of success.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Yes…we need a backup sets of manual controls for the triple-redundant FBW ones…because every cable, push-pull rod, and bell crank in a traditional aircraft is duplicated.
Cool, I’m just talking about Rhino-based platforms.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
digital engine controls that don’t have a manual backup mode
Interesting, I've never thought about this one for jets. Do Hornets not have some other means of engine control? Every digital turbine I've flown has a manual mode. Even the PT-6, which is analog, has a manual back up.

I'm wondering if this is the difference between a powered-turbine and a turbofan.
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
Interesting, I've never thought about this one for jets. Do Hornets not have some other means of engine control? Every digital turbine I've flown has a manual mode. Even the PT-6, which is analog, has a manual back up.

I'm wondering if this is the difference between a powered-turbine and a turbofan.
What do you mean by "manual mode," exactly?

A V-22 has 2 FADECs per engine. If they both die, the engine stays at a fixed power until it's secured. I would contend that a manual backup would add another failure mode.

The CH-46 had an emergency throttle, but that just bypassed the analog engine control. They ditched that after the engine control was upgraded, though.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I assume Eagle Claw was rehearsed a few times, and any aircraft issues would have been worked out. Joint operations weren't really a thing yet, and the mission had a lot of moving parts. If the mission hadn't failed when it did, it probably would have failed later with far worse consequences.

It kind of was but not how complete we would do it nowadays, there were several parts they didn't really rehearse much at all. They did determine that the Navy HM guys weren't really up to speed on the flying they needed to do so replaced most of them with Marines, but even then it was during the training stage IIRC and wasn't ideal to say the least.

The aircraft issues weren't really ever 'worked out' before the raid as they were using existing 'regular' assets and not specially equipped ones like they have now as Griz already posted about. It was the main impetus for the creation of SOCOM and many of its full time assets they utilize now instead of the ad hoc ones they used before.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Interesting, I've never thought about this one for jets. Do Hornets not have some other means of engine control? Every digital turbine I've flown has a manual mode. Even the PT-6, which is analog, has a manual back up.

I'm wondering if this is the difference between a powered-turbine and a turbofan.
Nope. It’s essentially FBW too.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
What do you mean by "manual mode," exactly?

A V-22 has 2 FADECs per engine. If they both die, the engine stays at a fixed power until it's secured. I would contend that a manual backup would add another failure mode.

In the -60, if the ECU malfunctions (which can happen for a myriad of reasons, and not necessarily because of the ECU specifically), you can switch to a manual engine control. With how the rigging is set, you adjust the "max" allowable power with the PCL and it's mostly set and forget until you land.

On the PW206 engines in the -135, if the FADEC dies, you can manually set N1 with the twist grip, thus giving you a way to set a constant N1 power setting (or constantly adjust N1 with the twist grip, if you really wanted to).

On the PT-6, if the FCU caused a roll-back, you could disconnect the P3 and T2 (or whatever it was called) inputs and just manually dump fuel into engine with the EPL.

Understand, I'm not arguing against FBW systems. I was just asking the question about the Hornet since I personally hadn't seen a turbine that didn't have a secondary control of some sort.
 

sevenhelmet

Low calorie attack from the Heartland
pilot
In the -60, if the ECU malfunctions (which can happen for a myriad of reasons, and not necessarily because of the ECU specifically), you can switch to a manual engine control. With how the rigging is set, you adjust the "max" allowable power with the PCL and it's mostly set and forget until you land.

On the PW206 engines in the -135, if the FADEC dies, you can manually set N1 with the twist grip, thus giving you a way to set a constant N1 power setting (or constantly adjust N1 with the twist grip, if you really wanted to).

On the PT-6, if the FCU caused a roll-back, you could disconnect the P3 and T2 (or whatever it was called) inputs and just manually dump fuel into engine with the EPL.

Understand, I'm not arguing against FBW systems. I was just asking the question about the Hornet since I personally hadn't seen a turbine that didn't have a secondary control of some sort.
The Super Hornet uses a two-channel FADEC on each engine. If one channel fails, it switches to the other channel. If the other channel is also failed, it will use the least degraded channel available. How that is determined is highly technical black magic.

I’ve never heard of an engine flaming out mid-flight in a Rhino due to a FADEC-specific issue (which doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened, but I would expect such occurrences to be extremely rare). In fact, the FADEC has been known on several occasions to keep the motor running despite extensive internal damage. I have also had a new(ly refurbished) engine on an F/A-18C flame out on me shortly after takeoff, due to a bad mechanical fuel control that arbitrarily drove fuel flow to zero. Evidently some component had been assembled incorrectly at the depot. They caught it on two engines (mine was the second, a Miramar USMC pilot had the first) before the assembly defect was found and fixed.

Thank goodness both motors didn’t go into the same airplane.
 
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