USN Showdown between Super Hornet and F-35

[HSMPBR]

Article and photos on the Lightning Carrier experiment.

For the last several years, the Marine Corps has been experimenting with the idea of loading up US Navy LHA/LHDs with a large number of F-35Bs, much like they did with their AV-8B Harrier jump jets back in 2003 for the start of Operation Iraqi Freedom. The Marine Corps Aviation Plan of 2017 first disclosed the concept, saying, “While the amphibious assault ship will never replace the aircraft carrier, it can be complementary, if employed in imaginative ways. The CVN-L concept has previously been employed (five times) utilizing AV-8B Harriers in a “Harrier Carrier” concept. The ARG/MEU’s mission, and 13 mission essential tasks (METs), will not change; however, a Lightning Carrier, taking full advantage of the amphibious assault ship as a sea base, can provide the naval and joint force with significant access, collection and strike capabilities.”

Aboard The Marine's First F-35B-Packed 'Lightning Carrier' (Updated)

The Marines turned USS Tripoli into a 'Lightning Carrier' packed with over 20 F-35Bs. We were there.

www.thedrive.com

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[Flash]

Article and photos on the Lightning Carrier experiment.

For the last several years, the Marine Corps has been experimenting with the idea of loading up US Navy LHA/LHDs with a large number of F-35Bs, much like they did with their AV-8B Harrier jump jets back in 2003 for the start of Operation Iraqi Freedom. The Marine Corps Aviation Plan of 2017 first disclosed the concept, saying, “While the amphibious assault ship will never replace the aircraft carrier, it can be complementary, if employed in imaginative ways. The CVN-L concept has previously been employed (five times) utilizing AV-8B Harriers in a “Harrier Carrier” concept. The ARG/MEU’s mission, and 13 mission essential tasks (METs), will not change; however, a Lightning Carrier, taking full advantage of the amphibious assault ship as a sea base, can provide the naval and joint force with significant access, collection and strike capabilities.”

Aboard The Marine's First F-35B-Packed 'Lightning Carrier' (Updated)

The Marines turned USS Tripoli into a 'Lightning Carrier' packed with over 20 F-35Bs. We were there.

www.thedrive.com

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That looks like a great aircraft transport to resupply forward bases or ships.

Also I think the title of the thread has been pretty much decided by now with Finland, Switzerland, Germany and now Canada (again) all selecting the F-35 within the the last 6 months.

 

[Hotdogs]

That looks like a great aircraft transport to resupply forward bases or ships.

Also I think the title of the thread has been pretty much decided by now with Finland, Switzerland, Germany and now Canada (again) all selecting the F-35 within the the last 6 months.

It looks like the Cactus Air Force in a Box.

 

[Flash]

It looks like the Cactus Air Force in a Box.

On a cheesebox perhaps?

 

[Gonzo08]

Also I think the title of the thread has been pretty much decided by now with Finland, Switzerland, Germany and now Canada (again) all selecting the F-35 within the the last 6 months.

Yeah, because all of those countries bought Lockheed's B.S. about how stealthy and survivable the F-35 will be.

It doesn't need external support because it's invisible and can go alone and unafraid into contested airspace relying only on it's onboard equipment... /s

 

[nittany03]

Yeah, because all of those countries bought Lockheed's B.S. about how stealthy and survivable the F-35 will be.

It doesn't need external support because it's invisible and can go alone and unafraid into contested airspace relying only on it's onboard equipment... /s

non-Naval fighter guys gaffing off the efficacy of EA, SEAD support, and enablers?

♪♫ Tale as old as time, song as old as rhyme . . . ♪♫

 

[Flash]

Yeah, because all of those countries bought Lockheed's B.S. about how stealthy and survivable the F-35 will be.

It doesn't need external support because it's invisible and can go alone and unafraid into contested airspace relying only on it's onboard equipment... /s

I am by no means a Lockheed or F-35 booster but the countries that recently chose the F-35 aren't exactly a bunch of simpletons, and two of them had open competitions that didn't have any of the corruption and malfeasance that is often associated with large weapons deals. Simply put it was a lot less buying into some sort of Lockheed propaganda and more choosing the most capable platform offered.

 

[Gonzo08]

I am by no means a Lockheed or F-35 booster but the countries that recently chose the F-35 aren't exactly a bunch of simpletons, and two of them had open competitions that didn't have any of the corruption and malfeasance that is often associated with large weapons deals. Simply put it was a lot less buying into some sort of Lockheed propaganda and more choosing the most capable platform offered.

And I'm arguing that without other things, it's not as capable as Lockheed might make it sounds.

 

[Flash]

And I'm arguing that without other things, it's not as capable as Lockheed might make it sounds.

Okay, but the countries buying know that as well and still bought it.

Also reminds me that I got nowhere near the amount of O'Club shenanigans and chocker whites that Top Gun promised.

 

[phrogdriver]

Okay, but the countries buying know that as well and still bought it.

Also reminds me that I got nowhere near the amount of O'Club shenanigans and chocker whites that Top Gun promised.

Agreed. No one spends multi-billions of dollars on aircraft because they like the brochure. The marketing material can’t tell a full story and isn’t expected to.

Also remember that FMS isn’t between LM and the foreign country. The USG is the sales agent and retailer. It wants these allied countries to fit into a larger plan for both the individual country’s success and that of the alliance.

 

[Brett327]

Okay, but the countries buying know that as well and still bought it.

No one spends multi-billions of dollars on aircraft because they like the brochure. The marketing material can’t tell a full story and isn’t expected to.

TBH, the USAF bought F-35 believing those same falsehoods... at least the GOs did (and still do). The operators all know better. Interestingly, the fairly mature Finland and Germany FMS cases for Growler both went away after they decided on F-35. Sounds like someone didn't read the fine print, or do their due diligence.

That's not to say that F-35 isn't a huge upgrade to Finland and Germany's existing arsenal, but it can only do a small subset of mission sets without proper enablers.

 

[Flash]

TBH, the USAF bought F-35 believing those same falsehoods... at least the GOs did (and still do). The operators all know better. Interestingly, the fairly mature Finland and Germany FMS cases for Growler both went away after they decided on F-35. Sounds like someone didn't read the fine print, or do their due diligence.

That's not to say that F-35 isn't a huge upgrade to Finland and Germany's existing arsenal, but it can only do a small subset of mission sets without proper enablers.

I'm betting the reasons the Growler sales went poof is that they both want to ensure fleet commonality for operational and budgetary reasons and when the Super Hornet didn't win the competition a big incentive to buy the Growler went away. It would be a hard sell for Finland to buy a squadron-sized fleet of a completely different type than their main combat aircraft fleet, adding a good amount to their long-term operating costs.

Germany's decision had a significant political component but even then it makes sense to them for several reasons. They were considering Growlers in large part because they were looking at getting Super Hornets as well, and the big reason they were looking at SH's was they needed an American aircraft to maintain their nuke mission after their Tornados are retired and we are unlikely to certify the Eurofighter to do the mission. The big problem is the SH's aren't certified for the nuke mission and it would have taken time and (German) money to get that done while F-35's are most of the way there, bought and paid for by us.

Given that very few air forces have tactical electronic attack aircraft, less than a literal handful, it shouldn't be a surprise that smaller air forces would chose not to buy them along with other enablers like tankers and AEW aircraft.

 

[Brett327]

I'm betting the reasons the Growler sales went poof is that they both want to ensure fleet commonality for operational and budgetary reasons and when the Super Hornet didn't win the competition a big incentive to buy the Growler went away. It would be a hard sell for Finland to buy a squadron-sized fleet of a completely different type than their main combat aircraft fleet, adding a good amount to their long-term operating costs.

Germany's decision had a significant political component but even then it makes sense to them for several reasons. They were considering Growlers in large part because they were looking at getting Super Hornets as well, and the big reason they were looking at SH's was they needed an American aircraft to maintain their nuke mission after their Tornados are retired and we are unlikely to certify the Eurofighter to do the mission. The big problem is the SH's aren't certified for the nuke mission and it would have taken time and (German) money to get that done while F-35's are most of the way there, bought and paid for by us.

Given that very few air forces have tactical electronic attack aircraft, less than a literal handful, it shouldn't be a surprise that smaller air forces would chose not to buy them along with other enablers like tankers and AEW aircraft.

Yes, of course that’s the reason, but that’s doesn’t change the fact that they’ll now have a capability gap without AEA.

 

[Flash]

The Czechs now plan to buy the F-35 as well, replacing their leased Gripens.

 

[HuggyU2]

Maybe Belarus can be the 17th F-35 customer.