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USN Showdown between Super Hornet and F-35


Leeroy Jenkins
The Marines will cooperate with the COD community to create economies of scale and paradigm shifting synergies. Cross deck training within the Blue/Green Team will allow CODPlopters to learn AEW and tanking from Marine plopter dudes while also sharing knowledge of satellite based SPECWAR insertion and over the horizon CSAR. An Osprey can do a self escort buddy tank night delivery of a SEAL team into a terrorist compound from a remote shore base, then return with mail and fresh lettuce directly to every ship in the strike group, while providing early warning all the way.
Bro you forgot strike capes. Get your shit together, Batman.

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
Super Moderator
I think the Marines are hoping MUX will fix all these problems by being all the things but there's no shortage of technical risk in their neat OV-1 slides.
Though I’m (thankfully) way off on the sidelines of the MUX discussions, there’s a distinct echo in what I’m hearing of the way the Navy talked about the CSA back in the ‘90s. A “future capabilities” machina ex deus that’ll do everything somehow.


A/C Wings Here
As soon as air wings learn from 2d MarDiv, they’ll have plenty of time to have Osprey guys learn tanking and AEW. Also Ospreys will have rockets. VMMGRFAW squadrons will learn their new trades after field day, PT, and the first formation of the day. Lots of time to do more with less, plus IRON DISCIPLINE
View attachment 21805
Is it my eyes or is the Generals stars pinned upside down?


Future performance not guaranteed . . .
One way to make it (sorta) work is to put two LHA/LHDs in the same ESG. One has a normal air complement, mostly rotary wing; the other has more F-35Bs than usual, but still has some rotary wing assets too.

And, even if the Marines are able to do all of that, it still doesn’t have the same capability + capacity as a typical CSG. It’s still a fairy tale stopgap that doesn’t have a well-rehearsed past record as a CSG does.
Have you been drinking? Have you deployed in a CSG/ESG/ARG ???


Well-Known Member
Standby on whether breakfast is authorized. Division hasn’t explicitly authorized breakfast in the schedule, and we will not deviate from the IRONCLAD DISCIPLINE and IRONCLAD CENTRALIZED MICROMANAGEMENT that is the hallmark of our beloved corps.

I will add that change one to this order will also include the singing of the Marines Hymn (now mandatory singing) until morale improves.

Did you forget to capitalize Corps? Your IRONCLAD ATTENTION TO DETAIL is lacking there, debbil.

Randy Daytona

Cold War Relic
Super Moderator
Nope, I didnt miss the F-35s in the barn. I think you missed the detail of how you get those jets in the fight because as @Treetop Flyer pointed out, the barn is usually packed full of broken jets. That neat little drawing also conveniently leaves out all the other stuff the MEU will bring with it and all the SE and other crap that spills over into the hangar. As to you saying the V-22s will live on the LPD where will the HMLA and HMM live? This concept pretty much locks out the rest of the MAGTFery that usually goes with an LHD. Which is fine if all you want to do is play with F-35s. But as soon as you want to move some Marines or poop out some LCACs you start losing out on your mini-carrier.

If you think VARS and an AEW V-22 will work then you're smoking crack. Again, where will you put them and how will VMM feel about not doing Assault Support with those assets?

I think the Marines are hoping MUX will fix all these problems by being all the things but there's no shortage of technical risk in their neat OV-1 slides.

Can an LHD function as a mini-carrier? As others have pointed out, not on its own.
To function as CVL's, you would want some of the same modifications that were added to increase stand-off range for the gators. Designed around the F-35 and V-22, the America (LHA-6) and Tripoli (LHA-7) have double the amount of jet fuel, 50% more hangar space, more deck space (but no well deck) and much better radar systems (LHA-8) from the previous LHD design allows these ships when required to function as CVL's. (The Bougainville (LHA-8) returns the well deck at the expense of aviation fuel storage but maintains the extra hangar space and the extra deck space.) The ability to carry a couple of squadrons of F-35's is a significant increase in flexibility, amplified by the extended range of the V-22 VARS aerial refueling. (I'm betting the VARS will happen.)

The MEU's ACE loadout was, is and will be mission dependent; in the past some have been skid heavy, some have been $hitter heavy, the Lightning Carrier concept will be a F-35 heavy configuration. In the past with these non-standard configurations, some aircraft have migrated to the LPD, in this configuration it is likely the V-22's will be on the LPD. HML/A and HMH will be ashore, same with a substantial portion of the GCE and/or LCE. That said, the V-22's and a couple of companies of infantry aboard the LPD / LSD still allow some of the MEU's mission set such as TRAP and NEO. The USS Wasp moved through the South China Sea a few weeks ago with 10 F-35's on the deck which is non-standard configuration.


As to the sketch showing aircraft in the hangar, maintenance (hangar queens, phases, unexpected malfunctions and aircraft awaiting FCF) - I expect a portion of the assets are unavailable - thus the aircraft in the hangar are logical.

Is the Lightning Carrier a replacement for a CVN? No. Can a Lightning Carrier supplement a CVN? Yes.

Note: aircraft carriers and/or helicopter carriers in the Pacific (not counting China.)
Japan : 2 Izumo class (Izumo, Kaga) at 814 ft, 27,000 tons (no well deck)
2 Hyuga class (Hyuga, Ise) at 646 ft, 19,000 tons (no well deck)
Australia: 2 Canberra class (Canberra, Adelaide) at 757 ft, 27,500 tons (well deck)
South Korea: 2 Dodko class (Dodko, Marado) at 653 ft, 18,800 tons (well deck)
India: 2 aircraft carriers (Vikramaditya, Vikrant) with arresting gear but no catapults

And in the news... British defense contractor BAE Systems is offering a Queen Elizabeth-class design as a contender for India’s third aircraft carrier, which will be built in India.

Randy Daytona

Cold War Relic
Super Moderator
I'm genuinely curious if anyone here is ready to admit that much like Iwo Jima style amphibious assaults are a thing of the past, that a midway-style carrier on carrier and a sortie generation fight might be as well? Therefore a need for 10 CVNs might be excessive? and that maybe we should invest in said flexibility, cyber warfighting, sea-basing, and SOF teams?
From the new Commandant.
New Commandant Berger Sheds 38-Amphib Requirement in Quest to Modernize USMC for High-End Fight

“I do not believe joint forcible entry operations (JFEO) are irrelevant or an operational anachronism; however, we must acknowledge that different approaches are required given the proliferation of anti-access/area denial (A2AD) threat capabilities in mutually contested spaces. Visions of a massed naval armada nine nautical miles off-shore in the South China Sea preparing to launch the landing force in swarms of ACVs, LCUs, and LCACs are impractical and unreasonable,” he wrote.