Has nothing to do with whether you're the only officer being ranked. An observed Fitrep with you coming out 1 of 1 is far better than a NOB.zab1001 said:
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Shore tour options, Masters degrees, and their effects on careers...
- Thread starter nfo2b
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Very enlightening
nfo2b seems to have stimulated an enormous amount of discussion of several key aspects involved in a naval career. I got two Master's Degrees and operational aviation command so allow me to offer some observations here.
- The Navy constantly evolves its needs regarding what they want officers to bring to the table. For a JO in the first squadron, keep your eyes and ears open (not your mouth) and try to figure out who among the Department Heads (DH) have screened for command in your aviation community, not just your squadron. Find out as many examples as you can to see if there are any patterns or common threads.
-- Many things change but one doesn't: performance counts the most. Moreover, competition for promotion and command is so high that the job you have is as important as the job you do. Sorry but that is an enduring feature of Naval Aviation.
- Current CO/XOs aren't necessarily the trend for the new JO searching for the right career moves because they are too far removed in time. But the Department Heads are closer in time to the JO and offer a better sample of what you are looking for in trends. Here's another news flash, don't piss off the Skipper. This never helps.
- You might look for how many of the DHs that screened for command in your community had Master's Degrees; how did they get those Master's Degrees. You might want to look at how many years they were in flying billets; which flying billets. Did they have any NOB tours?
- My first CO told me that you want be seen by the officers who are going to sit on your promotion boards and command screen boards. Who will they be? They will be the DHs serving in squadrons in your community about the same time you are a JO. Watch them. They are watching you for sure. Your CO and XO will probably be too senior to sit on your DH screen board, 0-4 and 0-5 selection boards and your command screen board. Obviously they write your fitreps but they won't necessarily sit on your selection boards. These DHs to which I refer are not only in your squadron (if so, they may be drafting your JO fitreps for the Skipper) but they are also in the RAG and type-command staffs too and other community jobs. So one trend is to get as many tours in community as you can. That way they see your act- good or bad. If it's good, your reputation will be established in community. If you are a dirt bag, it will be common knowledge throughout your community. If you hide, you're forgotten. If you're seen - well, you will get what they think you deserve.
- All JOs disdain DHs. That's fair. All I'm saying is listen for clues into their career patterns. You don't necessarily emulate them. Rather you're trying to discern if the leadership of Naval Aviation has made its collective preferences reflected in what they want future aviation senior officers and COs to look like in career terms. I can't predict that. You've got to just listen. Another news flash: Don't be a dick. That is timeless advice for any JO.
- As for graduate education, if you have to have a technical masters then go to NPS. You can probably sustain an NPS tour if your fitreps in your first squadron tour are good. But my guess is that you need to take a real good assessment of your first squadron tour and not kid yourself. You should be ranked among the top 5 at least in your last competitive fitrep. (That may be a stretch.) Top 3 would be better. Anything less than that then I am afraid that you better kiss off command; aim for O-5 selection; get a master's degree or a subspecialty because you'll need a second career after your DH tour, if you get one; and if you don't get one, you'll definitely need another career specialty.
- The Senior Service Colleges (a.k.a., War Colleges) are all accredited now, I think. This accreditation allows them to grant accredited Master's Degrees. They are not going to be technical master's degrees, however. Nevertheless, you could hold off on the master's degrees until you select for a senior service college - which will occur as you are a senior 0-4 typically. This might be too long for you to wait.
- The Master's degree is neutral for squadron command screening. It might be helpful in selection to O-5 but I would put my bets on fitreps to get you to O-5 not the Master's degree. Thankfully, the Navy is not like the Army and USAF. Those clowns force their officers to get master's degrees in order to select for O-4 and then get selected for a senior service college. Of course there are so many of those slugs that they can spare them to spend time in the classroom vice in their operational billets. News flash - the Navy does not have enough officers to begin with; is getting fewer. Who's going to fill the cockpits if a lot of officers are attending grad school? The Navy is not so much anti-education. It just that it's so operationally oriented that it must man the fleet first and foremost. This is not a bad thing.
- But in all this here's another piece of sage advice, do what you want. All this career enhancing insight is of little value if you are miserable in what you are doing. So in addition to not being a dick, do what you are comfortable doing. If you want command, then you're going to have to accept that the path is narrow, demanding, and you just may not enjoy the path to get there. I would wait to make up your mind during your first squadron tour. If you soon arrive at the realization that you want to be a DH, then you just might soon consider that you want to be the Skipper. But if you take a look and it does not appeal to you that much, then enjoy yourself by finding career fulfillment in some other way than command. The Navy has a lot to offer that is rewarding and a career full as well.
nfo2b seems to have stimulated an enormous amount of discussion of several key aspects involved in a naval career. I got two Master's Degrees and operational aviation command so allow me to offer some observations here.
- The Navy constantly evolves its needs regarding what they want officers to bring to the table. For a JO in the first squadron, keep your eyes and ears open (not your mouth) and try to figure out who among the Department Heads (DH) have screened for command in your aviation community, not just your squadron. Find out as many examples as you can to see if there are any patterns or common threads.
-- Many things change but one doesn't: performance counts the most. Moreover, competition for promotion and command is so high that the job you have is as important as the job you do. Sorry but that is an enduring feature of Naval Aviation.
- Current CO/XOs aren't necessarily the trend for the new JO searching for the right career moves because they are too far removed in time. But the Department Heads are closer in time to the JO and offer a better sample of what you are looking for in trends. Here's another news flash, don't piss off the Skipper. This never helps.
- You might look for how many of the DHs that screened for command in your community had Master's Degrees; how did they get those Master's Degrees. You might want to look at how many years they were in flying billets; which flying billets. Did they have any NOB tours?
- My first CO told me that you want be seen by the officers who are going to sit on your promotion boards and command screen boards. Who will they be? They will be the DHs serving in squadrons in your community about the same time you are a JO. Watch them. They are watching you for sure. Your CO and XO will probably be too senior to sit on your DH screen board, 0-4 and 0-5 selection boards and your command screen board. Obviously they write your fitreps but they won't necessarily sit on your selection boards. These DHs to which I refer are not only in your squadron (if so, they may be drafting your JO fitreps for the Skipper) but they are also in the RAG and type-command staffs too and other community jobs. So one trend is to get as many tours in community as you can. That way they see your act- good or bad. If it's good, your reputation will be established in community. If you are a dirt bag, it will be common knowledge throughout your community. If you hide, you're forgotten. If you're seen - well, you will get what they think you deserve.
- All JOs disdain DHs. That's fair. All I'm saying is listen for clues into their career patterns. You don't necessarily emulate them. Rather you're trying to discern if the leadership of Naval Aviation has made its collective preferences reflected in what they want future aviation senior officers and COs to look like in career terms. I can't predict that. You've got to just listen. Another news flash: Don't be a dick. That is timeless advice for any JO.
- As for graduate education, if you have to have a technical masters then go to NPS. You can probably sustain an NPS tour if your fitreps in your first squadron tour are good. But my guess is that you need to take a real good assessment of your first squadron tour and not kid yourself. You should be ranked among the top 5 at least in your last competitive fitrep. (That may be a stretch.) Top 3 would be better. Anything less than that then I am afraid that you better kiss off command; aim for O-5 selection; get a master's degree or a subspecialty because you'll need a second career after your DH tour, if you get one; and if you don't get one, you'll definitely need another career specialty.
- The Senior Service Colleges (a.k.a., War Colleges) are all accredited now, I think. This accreditation allows them to grant accredited Master's Degrees. They are not going to be technical master's degrees, however. Nevertheless, you could hold off on the master's degrees until you select for a senior service college - which will occur as you are a senior 0-4 typically. This might be too long for you to wait.
- The Master's degree is neutral for squadron command screening. It might be helpful in selection to O-5 but I would put my bets on fitreps to get you to O-5 not the Master's degree. Thankfully, the Navy is not like the Army and USAF. Those clowns force their officers to get master's degrees in order to select for O-4 and then get selected for a senior service college. Of course there are so many of those slugs that they can spare them to spend time in the classroom vice in their operational billets. News flash - the Navy does not have enough officers to begin with; is getting fewer. Who's going to fill the cockpits if a lot of officers are attending grad school? The Navy is not so much anti-education. It just that it's so operationally oriented that it must man the fleet first and foremost. This is not a bad thing.
- But in all this here's another piece of sage advice, do what you want. All this career enhancing insight is of little value if you are miserable in what you are doing. So in addition to not being a dick, do what you are comfortable doing. If you want command, then you're going to have to accept that the path is narrow, demanding, and you just may not enjoy the path to get there. I would wait to make up your mind during your first squadron tour. If you soon arrive at the realization that you want to be a DH, then you just might soon consider that you want to be the Skipper. But if you take a look and it does not appeal to you that much, then enjoy yourself by finding career fulfillment in some other way than command. The Navy has a lot to offer that is rewarding and a career full as well.
In retrospect
My last competitive fitrep in my first squadron, I ranked Number 2. And Number 1 I would have ranked Number 1. He clearly deserved that ranking. He was the poster child for naval aviation. When I became a CO, I noted that Number 1 and Number 3 from my first squadron were no longer in the Navy. I never heard what happened to them. After I left command, I observed that my JOs, which ranked in the top 1 or 2, screened for command.
Unfortunately, the deep dark naval aviation secret is that that first squadron tour really is the trend setter. There is not much hope for late bloomers. And it gets worse. Some of the top guys who peter out later still tend to carry the halo from their first tour, clearly living on past reputation not current accomplishments. :icon_rage
Another secret, any personnel selection process in the Navy (including command screen) that gets "enough" of the right people won't be changed to get "all" the right people.
So keep your eyes open. And do what you want.
Brett327 said:
My last competitive fitrep in my first squadron, I ranked Number 2. And Number 1 I would have ranked Number 1. He clearly deserved that ranking. He was the poster child for naval aviation. When I became a CO, I noted that Number 1 and Number 3 from my first squadron were no longer in the Navy. I never heard what happened to them. After I left command, I observed that my JOs, which ranked in the top 1 or 2, screened for command.
Unfortunately, the deep dark naval aviation secret is that that first squadron tour really is the trend setter. There is not much hope for late bloomers. And it gets worse. Some of the top guys who peter out later still tend to carry the halo from their first tour, clearly living on past reputation not current accomplishments. :icon_rage
Another secret, any personnel selection process in the Navy (including command screen) that gets "enough" of the right people won't be changed to get "all" the right people.
So keep your eyes open. And do what you want.
nfo2b
Well, not anymore... :(
Wow, thank you, sir, for some of the most incredibly relevant and erudite advice I have received. I am truly grateful. So much food for thought that my brain's gonna need some Rolaids.USN99 said:
A couple of questions, though...
What are you referring to when you say "subspecialty"? Do you get these in NOB billets, or can you get them in community?USN99 said:
Before I address this, please understand that I am in no way doubting your knowledge on the subject, as you clearly have a thorough understanding of this, and enough experience to speak with authority here. But if these assertions are true, then why is the SWO community asking newly commissioned officers to get out or go reserves due to reported overmanning? And why has there been so much talk on these forums about the Pilot pipeline being so backed up due to "too many pilots"? And why are so many SNA's/SNFO's being asked if they would want to DOR or lat x-fer in their first weeks of API? Again, I'm not opposing you (as I'd be quite a fool to do so), just trying to make sense of all of this.USN99 said:
Again, I thank you sincerely for sharing your wisdom. Answered a few questions for me, and gave me alot of things to think about, and tuck into my seabag.
Since I started this thread, I've been doing alot of soul-searching and thinking about what I really wanted from the rest of my Naval career. And I've decided that it is actually quite impossible to answer that question right now, at least in the context of the long term. And you've confirmed a conclusion that's been coalescing in my own mind--that while it's fine for me to have a goal of command, I should concentrate on being a great Naval officer first, a great Naval Aviator second, and let the cards fall where they may. I think that trying to control my entire career with only my two goals of an MS and command in mind is akin to driving a car with blinders on. It would most certainly end up being a futile and miserable endeavor. And as you and others have said (and I already knew, which is why I chose to leave the Nuke field after 10 years), why bother pursuing a career that you don't enjoy doing? So although I still have command as a goal, if I end up flying for 20 years, I don't think I'll be too heart broken.
I am still getting my MS before I die, though. It's a personal thing. :icon_smil
Note: do not try to transfer anything that is said in this thread over to the SWO community.
Additional clarification
Steve Wilkins is generally correct. If I can use a perhaps overworked metaphor here, Naval Aviation has a "culture" that is distinct from SWO, Submarine/Undersea Warfare and Special Warfare. So cross-walking characteristics of Naval Aviation into the other warfare specialties is sometimes problematic. However, I would assert that 1) "Don't be a dick"; and, 2) "Don't piss off the Skipper" are cross-walkable over to the other warfare commununities. I would also assert that taking careful measure of SWO DHs would also reflect a relevant source of data on what the senior leadership of SWO-dom wants to see in their pool of XOs from which they will select COs.
Ask your NROTC Officer Instructors about sub-specialties. Also you might go to the BUPERs web-site and look at the Reference Section for pubs relating to officer personnel management. They should describe the sub-specialties. Sub-specialties can include the engineering disciplines, pol-mil, financial management, etc.- basically the billets "coded" for sub-specialists in the corresponding fields in which the NPS degree programs and other post grad degree programs qualify an officer to serve in . The Navy has also sprouted additional second-career opportunities from their set of sub-specialties. Those other second-career areas include FAO (Foreign Area Officer - definitely non-tech) and, frankly, the Joint Service Officer designation.
I think that today's detailers, if they are being honest, will agree that naval officers need to be qualified for something other than their warfare specialty after they reach O-5 generally speaking. In the context of Naval Aviation, just look at the number of squadron JOs vs number of DHs vs number of CO/XOs vs number of major commands they are qualified to be selected for. These numbers are not a pyramid they are a statistical stove-pipe or drinking straw. Naval Aviation is just not big enough to allow a significant number of officers to keep flying at the O-5 and beyond level. And generally speaking, if you're not on the command track, you could stay in flying billets well into your O-4 years and make it to 20 - but the underlying proviso is that you're jeopardizing somewhat your chance of selection to O-5. For those in the command track, again, compare the numbers of community command slots vs major command opportunities. Not a pyramid, a stove-pipe. So the stats for staying in the cockpit are grim; for staying in warfare community, but not in the cockpit, are better; for taking on a "second career" outside of community after you reach O-5 are even better. Ergo, I would assert once again "do what you want".
nfo2b asks about "not enough officers". BUPERS has to manage the total number of officers as required by legislation. Because of the up-or-out treadmill, they must manage officer numbers by Year Group (YG - tends to equate to the FY in which the Ensign was commissioned). Because of fleet needs and funding levels that vary over time and which are predicted in the Program Objectives Memorandum (POM) every two years at least, BUPERS can see that some YGs are over-sized and some might be under-sized. The phenomenon to which you refer suggests that they have identified a YG as being over-sized and are encouraging departures. And this is directly translatable to all naval officer communities but not all YGs in a given community. Yep, you guessed it, it's the old "big picture". BUPERS is looking at it; detailers are clever and very circumscribed in sharing their view to the JO on the phone. A JO in a squadron can't see it as clearly and some are simply oblivious to whatever takes place outside the cockpit.
Alert - sea story follows. I met many officers who related to me a Naval Aviation Schools Command Massacre that occurred during the post-Vietnam years. They said that the auditorium at P'cola was filled with all the AOCS students. Each got an envelope with a colored piece of paper in it or just a colored piece of paper. Then the color code was announced. One color meant you were thanked for your interest in national defense and told how to out-process immediately. The other color meant that you could return to the plan of the day (continue AOCS) but if you wanted, you too could out-process. This was indeed brutal. But either that YG was down-sized then or else naval aviation was going to offer some pretty dismal prospects for that over-sized number of future Ensigns. Even when I was in the Naval Aviation Training Command I had flight instructors who were Ensigns who had just received their wings. End of sea story.
My general observation about the Navy not having enough officers was meant to convey that the Navy has always had a conservative approach to the number of officers it needed. Converted to an officer to enlisted ratio, I believe the USMC has the fewest officers to enlisted; next USN; then Army and USAF is the worst (most numerous). When the Joint Service Officer legislation came into being (Goldwater-Nichols), the USN struggled to fill Joint Duty Assignment List (JDAL) billets with competitive officers from a pool of officers that did not get larger in order to fill the JDAL. This legislation tracks the promotion rates of non-JSOs vs JSOs within each service. This compels each service to not keep its competitive officers (i.e., those headed for O-5, O-6 and beyond) inside the service and away from the JDAL. Also, there are JDAL pre-requisites to make O-7.
As naval officers become more senior and are starting to be screened for Senior and Junior Service Colleges, shifting out of flying, there just are not a surplus of officers who can take education assignments (post-grad education, Service Colleges) or in general take non-warfare specialty (broader category than "in the cockpit") tours. An educational tour is Not Observed (NOB). If you get selected for NPS, that tour will likely be NOB.
Observation about fitreps: All other things being equal, the more senior the Skipper the more relative weight the fitrep has in any legislative (promotion) or administrative (command screen) boards. So having an Admiral sign your fitrep will carry more weight than an O-5. However, if that O-5 makes Flag, then that O-5 fitrep weighs more than the O-5 that did not make Flag (in time for your fitrep to be boarded).
News flash. Promotion boards in the Navy, I would assert, are better than any other service. Criticize them as you may, relative to the other services, I think they are better.
News flash. Naval Aviation Admin (command screen) boards are community affairs. Each community has its slate of officers that it wants command selected. The community rep on the command screen board is informally advised of who their community wants command screened. I stress informal here. There is no written record. However, key community flags and key community O-6s (Wing Commanders typically) informally make known their candidates within a YG that they want command selected. At the command screen board, each community rep briefs their community candidates one by one. Unless the candidate is marginal or demonstrably objectionable, the other community reps won't vote "no" on their automated secret ballots. This isn't a rubber stamp process. But let us say that the other communities tend to endorse each other mostly, predominantly, but not exclusively (i.e., rubber stamp the other community candidates for command). That is why it is career-enhancing to take community jobs so this coterie of community senior officers catches your act, good or bad.
I like the analogy about driving with blinders. Well said, nfo2b. In fact, its sage advice. The Navy is distinct in that we are naval officers first and foremost, warfare specialists second (Air, SWO, Sub, SpecWar). Get to your first squadron and take a measure of it. Get fully NATOPS qualified. Just about the time you've reached this milestone start asking yourself about being the best in the squadron; then start asking yourself if you could do a better job than any DH. Then get about mid-way into our first squadron tour and ask yourself about whether or not you could not only put your weapons on target but whether or not you are interested in putting an entire squadron on target(s). If you are, then maybe you are interested in being the Skipper. At least by that time the blinders will be off.
I would assert once again "do what you want".
Steve Wilkins is generally correct. If I can use a perhaps overworked metaphor here, Naval Aviation has a "culture" that is distinct from SWO, Submarine/Undersea Warfare and Special Warfare. So cross-walking characteristics of Naval Aviation into the other warfare specialties is sometimes problematic. However, I would assert that 1) "Don't be a dick"; and, 2) "Don't piss off the Skipper" are cross-walkable over to the other warfare commununities. I would also assert that taking careful measure of SWO DHs would also reflect a relevant source of data on what the senior leadership of SWO-dom wants to see in their pool of XOs from which they will select COs.
Ask your NROTC Officer Instructors about sub-specialties. Also you might go to the BUPERs web-site and look at the Reference Section for pubs relating to officer personnel management. They should describe the sub-specialties. Sub-specialties can include the engineering disciplines, pol-mil, financial management, etc.- basically the billets "coded" for sub-specialists in the corresponding fields in which the NPS degree programs and other post grad degree programs qualify an officer to serve in . The Navy has also sprouted additional second-career opportunities from their set of sub-specialties. Those other second-career areas include FAO (Foreign Area Officer - definitely non-tech) and, frankly, the Joint Service Officer designation.
I think that today's detailers, if they are being honest, will agree that naval officers need to be qualified for something other than their warfare specialty after they reach O-5 generally speaking. In the context of Naval Aviation, just look at the number of squadron JOs vs number of DHs vs number of CO/XOs vs number of major commands they are qualified to be selected for. These numbers are not a pyramid they are a statistical stove-pipe or drinking straw. Naval Aviation is just not big enough to allow a significant number of officers to keep flying at the O-5 and beyond level. And generally speaking, if you're not on the command track, you could stay in flying billets well into your O-4 years and make it to 20 - but the underlying proviso is that you're jeopardizing somewhat your chance of selection to O-5. For those in the command track, again, compare the numbers of community command slots vs major command opportunities. Not a pyramid, a stove-pipe. So the stats for staying in the cockpit are grim; for staying in warfare community, but not in the cockpit, are better; for taking on a "second career" outside of community after you reach O-5 are even better. Ergo, I would assert once again "do what you want".
nfo2b asks about "not enough officers". BUPERS has to manage the total number of officers as required by legislation. Because of the up-or-out treadmill, they must manage officer numbers by Year Group (YG - tends to equate to the FY in which the Ensign was commissioned). Because of fleet needs and funding levels that vary over time and which are predicted in the Program Objectives Memorandum (POM) every two years at least, BUPERS can see that some YGs are over-sized and some might be under-sized. The phenomenon to which you refer suggests that they have identified a YG as being over-sized and are encouraging departures. And this is directly translatable to all naval officer communities but not all YGs in a given community. Yep, you guessed it, it's the old "big picture". BUPERS is looking at it; detailers are clever and very circumscribed in sharing their view to the JO on the phone. A JO in a squadron can't see it as clearly and some are simply oblivious to whatever takes place outside the cockpit.
Alert - sea story follows. I met many officers who related to me a Naval Aviation Schools Command Massacre that occurred during the post-Vietnam years. They said that the auditorium at P'cola was filled with all the AOCS students. Each got an envelope with a colored piece of paper in it or just a colored piece of paper. Then the color code was announced. One color meant you were thanked for your interest in national defense and told how to out-process immediately. The other color meant that you could return to the plan of the day (continue AOCS) but if you wanted, you too could out-process. This was indeed brutal. But either that YG was down-sized then or else naval aviation was going to offer some pretty dismal prospects for that over-sized number of future Ensigns. Even when I was in the Naval Aviation Training Command I had flight instructors who were Ensigns who had just received their wings. End of sea story.
My general observation about the Navy not having enough officers was meant to convey that the Navy has always had a conservative approach to the number of officers it needed. Converted to an officer to enlisted ratio, I believe the USMC has the fewest officers to enlisted; next USN; then Army and USAF is the worst (most numerous). When the Joint Service Officer legislation came into being (Goldwater-Nichols), the USN struggled to fill Joint Duty Assignment List (JDAL) billets with competitive officers from a pool of officers that did not get larger in order to fill the JDAL. This legislation tracks the promotion rates of non-JSOs vs JSOs within each service. This compels each service to not keep its competitive officers (i.e., those headed for O-5, O-6 and beyond) inside the service and away from the JDAL. Also, there are JDAL pre-requisites to make O-7.
As naval officers become more senior and are starting to be screened for Senior and Junior Service Colleges, shifting out of flying, there just are not a surplus of officers who can take education assignments (post-grad education, Service Colleges) or in general take non-warfare specialty (broader category than "in the cockpit") tours. An educational tour is Not Observed (NOB). If you get selected for NPS, that tour will likely be NOB.
Observation about fitreps: All other things being equal, the more senior the Skipper the more relative weight the fitrep has in any legislative (promotion) or administrative (command screen) boards. So having an Admiral sign your fitrep will carry more weight than an O-5. However, if that O-5 makes Flag, then that O-5 fitrep weighs more than the O-5 that did not make Flag (in time for your fitrep to be boarded).
News flash. Promotion boards in the Navy, I would assert, are better than any other service. Criticize them as you may, relative to the other services, I think they are better.
News flash. Naval Aviation Admin (command screen) boards are community affairs. Each community has its slate of officers that it wants command selected. The community rep on the command screen board is informally advised of who their community wants command screened. I stress informal here. There is no written record. However, key community flags and key community O-6s (Wing Commanders typically) informally make known their candidates within a YG that they want command selected. At the command screen board, each community rep briefs their community candidates one by one. Unless the candidate is marginal or demonstrably objectionable, the other community reps won't vote "no" on their automated secret ballots. This isn't a rubber stamp process. But let us say that the other communities tend to endorse each other mostly, predominantly, but not exclusively (i.e., rubber stamp the other community candidates for command). That is why it is career-enhancing to take community jobs so this coterie of community senior officers catches your act, good or bad.
I like the analogy about driving with blinders. Well said, nfo2b. In fact, its sage advice. The Navy is distinct in that we are naval officers first and foremost, warfare specialists second (Air, SWO, Sub, SpecWar). Get to your first squadron and take a measure of it. Get fully NATOPS qualified. Just about the time you've reached this milestone start asking yourself about being the best in the squadron; then start asking yourself if you could do a better job than any DH. Then get about mid-way into our first squadron tour and ask yourself about whether or not you could not only put your weapons on target but whether or not you are interested in putting an entire squadron on target(s). If you are, then maybe you are interested in being the Skipper. At least by that time the blinders will be off.
I would assert once again "do what you want".
This is by far one of the best posts I've read on Airwarriors. This is the type of stuff that generally never gets addressed here. My short blurb above was really directed at the education aspect of the thread. I just didn't explain that very well.
Chubby
Active Member
Here is my question, would it be all that terrible to my career if i said "f" it and had fun, studied, learned about my aircraft, became as technically proficient as possible and took care of my people. Because honestly, both of my grandfathers were prior senior enlisted and if I have learned one thing, it is take care of your people first and foremost. So, if I am more concerned with taking care of my people and my shop and being the best pilot I can, vice worried about what I need to do to make O-5 or CO, is that really going to be detrimental to my career? Just curious and thanks.
Despite some whacko skippers I have seen, making CO or even O-5 doesn't just happen. There are alot of factors that you can influence, others like timing which you can't. Worrying about your career and taking care of your troops are not mutually exclusive - they go hand in hand.Chubby said:
Brett
You're right
If you did all that- studied, learned the aircraft, became technically proficient, took care of the troops - and then had fun, your career will be a success. If you achieve all that and your career wasn't a "success", then it's not that you were deficient but those around you that did not recognize the value of your honorable endeavors. It's their loss not yours. If they could not recognize it then they would be aptly and justifiably labeled as miscreants, morons, and generally contemptible carbon-based tools.
I will assert that your own fun has to be last, included, nevertheless, but last. And if you can quickly get fully qualified in the air, taking care of the troops goes to number one. (Actually, mission first, take care of the troops second. But I digress.)
Alert- sea story follows: I once received a surprise notice from the Bureau to process for admin discharge one of my E-6s. In the course of getting a background investigation for a TS clearance, some of her shipmates implied that she liked to flash her ample assets when consuming a bit of the brew. My response to the Bureau was "hell no". :icon_rage I processed her for an admin discharge but packed the board with a group of officers who shared my high regard for her professional and technical skills. (And besides, we had never heard of this flashing stuff anyway.) They transmittted back to the Bureau the "hell no" message I was sincerely hoping for. I also transmitted to her the message- knock it off (no pun intended) and start to act like a Chief in the making (again, no double entendre). And a few years later, she made E-7. I could have thrown her over the side with ease. But that just was not right in my mind. Lesson here. Take care of the troops. End of sea story.
Resume normal underway watches. :icon_smil
Chubby said:
If you did all that- studied, learned the aircraft, became technically proficient, took care of the troops - and then had fun, your career will be a success. If you achieve all that and your career wasn't a "success", then it's not that you were deficient but those around you that did not recognize the value of your honorable endeavors. It's their loss not yours. If they could not recognize it then they would be aptly and justifiably labeled as miscreants, morons, and generally contemptible carbon-based tools.
I will assert that your own fun has to be last, included, nevertheless, but last. And if you can quickly get fully qualified in the air, taking care of the troops goes to number one. (Actually, mission first, take care of the troops second. But I digress.)
Alert- sea story follows: I once received a surprise notice from the Bureau to process for admin discharge one of my E-6s. In the course of getting a background investigation for a TS clearance, some of her shipmates implied that she liked to flash her ample assets when consuming a bit of the brew. My response to the Bureau was "hell no". :icon_rage I processed her for an admin discharge but packed the board with a group of officers who shared my high regard for her professional and technical skills. (And besides, we had never heard of this flashing stuff anyway.) They transmittted back to the Bureau the "hell no" message I was sincerely hoping for. I also transmitted to her the message- knock it off (no pun intended) and start to act like a Chief in the making (again, no double entendre). And a few years later, she made E-7. I could have thrown her over the side with ease. But that just was not right in my mind. Lesson here. Take care of the troops. End of sea story.
Resume normal underway watches. :icon_smil
USN99 said:Kolja-
Would one be wrong to presume that your brief comments amount to an approval of the shared perspectives earlier in the string?
My comments weren't so breif earlier in the thread - and when i wrote that last one, I was on dial-up from a hotel near Nellis, nursing a hangover and looking forward to manning up in 100 degree temps
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