I realize that this topic has been beat to death. But with the reduction of aircraft and this new reserve program, I just wanted some last minute advice before selection. Are P-3's really safe to select right now? By safe I mean that the chances are very low of getting released from active duty. What are the VP/VQ chances of picking up O-4? Right now it seems like everyone is overmanned and a lot of P-3 primary IP's seem turned off by the community. Any advice would by greatly appreciated.
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Selecting P-3's
- Thread starter kaiangel
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No one on here is going to be able to tell you what the future holds with any certainty. But, here are some thoughts:
Release from active duty: Right now the plan is to pull 40 guys from Maritime VT and HT (jets? anybody know?) and send 'em to VR, to reduce the pool of bodies. What this means for Maritime specifically, numbers-wise, who knows? I'd wager that if you went Maritime, and you did at least reasonably well, you'd get winged and end up in P-3s. As far as the "150 bodies to pull from the pipelines", I'd say its coming, so don't give them a reason to put a banana in your tailpipe.
Chances of VP/VQ picking up O4: Good on ya for looking ahead, I guarantee you'll flip flop a hundred times on where your desire stands on that career once you get a taste of the real world and the politics. Right now is too early to tell.
P-3s are overmanned, no doubt. The plan to alleviate this is in progress as we speak, and as we've re-hashed on here over and over (one pilot for every seat).
Bitter/angry IPs: You have to realize that the guys in IP billets right now are in the same yeargroups as the Webmaster, Eagle32, and I. For guys in our timeframe, the odds of making DH/O-4 within the VP community is slim. So you have a lot of guys who wanted to go the distance, and can't because of the community drawdown (not me, I never planned on doing this forever). There's just too many of us at this stage in our careers. Add to that the ever-present uncertainty of the future of the aircraft, and the dangled carrot that is MMA, and you have a lot of factors.
It's what you make of it. If you've weighed all the options and think Maritime is the best fit for you (goals, family, ops, lifestyle), go for it.
I really hope this doesn't turn into a 40 post nightmare...
Release from active duty: Right now the plan is to pull 40 guys from Maritime VT and HT (jets? anybody know?) and send 'em to VR, to reduce the pool of bodies. What this means for Maritime specifically, numbers-wise, who knows? I'd wager that if you went Maritime, and you did at least reasonably well, you'd get winged and end up in P-3s. As far as the "150 bodies to pull from the pipelines", I'd say its coming, so don't give them a reason to put a banana in your tailpipe.
Chances of VP/VQ picking up O4: Good on ya for looking ahead, I guarantee you'll flip flop a hundred times on where your desire stands on that career once you get a taste of the real world and the politics. Right now is too early to tell.
P-3s are overmanned, no doubt. The plan to alleviate this is in progress as we speak, and as we've re-hashed on here over and over (one pilot for every seat).
Bitter/angry IPs: You have to realize that the guys in IP billets right now are in the same yeargroups as the Webmaster, Eagle32, and I. For guys in our timeframe, the odds of making DH/O-4 within the VP community is slim. So you have a lot of guys who wanted to go the distance, and can't because of the community drawdown (not me, I never planned on doing this forever). There's just too many of us at this stage in our careers. Add to that the ever-present uncertainty of the future of the aircraft, and the dangled carrot that is MMA, and you have a lot of factors.
It's what you make of it. If you've weighed all the options and think Maritime is the best fit for you (goals, family, ops, lifestyle), go for it.
I really hope this doesn't turn into a 40 post nightmare...
Kai, completely agree with Zab's post. I personally think that the guys and gals coming in now, aren't going to have the same problems we are experiencing. The fact that VP is cutting so hard and fast now, to handle the problem, is going to make it easier for you when you go for those follow on orders, or eventually department head. Lets face it, overmanning is not just a VP thing right now, all the communities are facing it, its just that it is getting talked about more on this site.
The other aspect that keeps getting brought up, is if VP (MRPA) is going to stay around, well, first off, we are getting the new aircraft MMA in 2011 or so, though P3s will be around for awhile after that. Also, the MPRA mission is one that is highly valued by other component commanders, both Navy and Marines. In fact, there are too many jobs for us at the moment, especially as we attempt to preserve our flight hours on aircraft. So, you will be gainfully employed on deployment!
I can't say it enough, I had a blast on my JO tour, there are the ups and downs, but the friends you make, and the good times you have are a all worth it.
The other aspect that keeps getting brought up, is if VP (MRPA) is going to stay around, well, first off, we are getting the new aircraft MMA in 2011 or so, though P3s will be around for awhile after that. Also, the MPRA mission is one that is highly valued by other component commanders, both Navy and Marines. In fact, there are too many jobs for us at the moment, especially as we attempt to preserve our flight hours on aircraft. So, you will be gainfully employed on deployment!
I can't say it enough, I had a blast on my JO tour, there are the ups and downs, but the friends you make, and the good times you have are a all worth it.
1. NEEDS OF THE NAVY. Say it over and over until, you have memorized it. Very few guys I commissioned with went the full 20 years in the community they chose.
1a. USNR. If you are willing to leave active duty for the reserves to make your 20 or 30, you probably can. The Navy cannot plan beyond 3-4 years, plus the world is changing so fast that no one can plan very far ahead. When I was on active duty there was no career path for NFOs; they couldn't hold command and very few made it past O-3. In fact, in my first squadron, no NFO made LCDR or CDR in three years, but almost every pilot did. It was a real two-tier system. I left active duty and went into the Reserves. Best decision I ever made. After I landed in the reserves, (1) Congress changed the law to allow NFOs to command; (2) the Mission Commander position was created (yeah, I’m an old fart); and (3) P-3s were exactly the right place to be at the right time. Wound up flying for 17 out of 21 years. That is impossible on active duty.
2. P-3 --> MMA. In the past 18 months the Navy has grounded 40% of its
P-3 fleet for corrosion and wing fatigue problems. The MMA will not come online until 2012-2014 with one squadron plus the RAG. That means a lot of P-3 flying left, then a transition to the MMA for those who are still flying 10-15 years from now (i.e. The Reserves).
3. EARLY RELEASE. The Navy is gonna need MPA for a long time. The guys in the fleet now will tell you that recently they’ve been spending their time overland doing stuff we never did when I was humping the Pacific. We did 90% ASW and 10% other. They have been doing the reverse, and now the Navy is scrambling to recreate the ASW expertise we had and was not recreated after we retired – the new generation diesel-electric subs are a big threat to today’s littoral warfare. For my money, VP is no more likely to downsize than any other Navy aviation community except VR. The Navy is growing VR to meet logistics needs, and in fact, just changed one VP squadron to VR, flying C-130s (no NFOs, unfortunately).
4. DEPT HEAD. The world is not fair. There are more O-4s than billets. This issue is more one of squadron structure than particular community. Again, you want DH, go Reserves.
4a. USN vs. USNR. The Navy is perhaps the best service for keeping parity. Every job on active duty is mirrored in the Reserves, plus you get to fly until they pry your hands off the knobs and drag your screaming ass off the plane when you make O-5 and you lose your flying billet (unless you are 2 on 20 to make CO/XO). Then plan on several years in the VTU drilling for no pay/no fly but making that 20+ for retirement. Plus it’s still the Navy.
5. OVERMANNING. The bottom of the current cycle, plus the effect of the Iraq War sucking-up all the O2. The Navy never promises you anything other than trying to best use you. We all joined to fly. But after you make LT, the Navy starts expecting more management/leadership and less flying. If there are IPs dragging-ass around your squadron, pissing and whining about not having enough flight hours, they are of marginal use to the command. With the big recent cut in the P-3 inventory there are bound to be too many people for a while. Use the opportunity to become a better O; then, in 7-8 years you’ll look a lot better to that Dept Head Board.
Some other time we can discuss undermanning: being the only NFO on a P-3 flying 100 hrs/month for six months.
6. SEE (1).
Ip568
http://www.navlog.org
1a. USNR. If you are willing to leave active duty for the reserves to make your 20 or 30, you probably can. The Navy cannot plan beyond 3-4 years, plus the world is changing so fast that no one can plan very far ahead. When I was on active duty there was no career path for NFOs; they couldn't hold command and very few made it past O-3. In fact, in my first squadron, no NFO made LCDR or CDR in three years, but almost every pilot did. It was a real two-tier system. I left active duty and went into the Reserves. Best decision I ever made. After I landed in the reserves, (1) Congress changed the law to allow NFOs to command; (2) the Mission Commander position was created (yeah, I’m an old fart); and (3) P-3s were exactly the right place to be at the right time. Wound up flying for 17 out of 21 years. That is impossible on active duty.
2. P-3 --> MMA. In the past 18 months the Navy has grounded 40% of its
P-3 fleet for corrosion and wing fatigue problems. The MMA will not come online until 2012-2014 with one squadron plus the RAG. That means a lot of P-3 flying left, then a transition to the MMA for those who are still flying 10-15 years from now (i.e. The Reserves).
3. EARLY RELEASE. The Navy is gonna need MPA for a long time. The guys in the fleet now will tell you that recently they’ve been spending their time overland doing stuff we never did when I was humping the Pacific. We did 90% ASW and 10% other. They have been doing the reverse, and now the Navy is scrambling to recreate the ASW expertise we had and was not recreated after we retired – the new generation diesel-electric subs are a big threat to today’s littoral warfare. For my money, VP is no more likely to downsize than any other Navy aviation community except VR. The Navy is growing VR to meet logistics needs, and in fact, just changed one VP squadron to VR, flying C-130s (no NFOs, unfortunately).
4. DEPT HEAD. The world is not fair. There are more O-4s than billets. This issue is more one of squadron structure than particular community. Again, you want DH, go Reserves.
4a. USN vs. USNR. The Navy is perhaps the best service for keeping parity. Every job on active duty is mirrored in the Reserves, plus you get to fly until they pry your hands off the knobs and drag your screaming ass off the plane when you make O-5 and you lose your flying billet (unless you are 2 on 20 to make CO/XO). Then plan on several years in the VTU drilling for no pay/no fly but making that 20+ for retirement. Plus it’s still the Navy.
5. OVERMANNING. The bottom of the current cycle, plus the effect of the Iraq War sucking-up all the O2. The Navy never promises you anything other than trying to best use you. We all joined to fly. But after you make LT, the Navy starts expecting more management/leadership and less flying. If there are IPs dragging-ass around your squadron, pissing and whining about not having enough flight hours, they are of marginal use to the command. With the big recent cut in the P-3 inventory there are bound to be too many people for a while. Use the opportunity to become a better O; then, in 7-8 years you’ll look a lot better to that Dept Head Board.
Some other time we can discuss undermanning: being the only NFO on a P-3 flying 100 hrs/month for six months.
6. SEE (1).
Ip568
http://www.navlog.org
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