Road to 350: What Does the US Navy Do Anyway?

[Lawman]

So agree with most of your points, but this isn’t what Det 201 is about. Quite frankly, the CTO of Palantir is punching way down commissioning as an O5….in his private sector job, his actual counterparts in professional interactions would typically be Flag/General Officers.

For the Det 201 mission, jury’s still out on what the hell the point is. I think they have a lot to offer, but they can do the whole “part time” advisor or consultant thing just fine without the uniform. That’s not really a role where Title X, UCMJ, Geneva Conventions or whatever matters much at all

And btw, I think they should feel all the pain of military bureaucracy and IT in their onboarding, Tricare included. Permission granted to start tackling all the dumb shit where we lag the private sector in processing basic admin services that keep us running. Should be an easy win for the Kings of Silicon Valley.

On the other side, I’m fine with doing whatever to develop and retain Cyber talent too…but that should be based on an actually strategy of understanding what we need in terms of talent, and parallels to what the private sector actually does.

It’s not like we don’t already do it, every nurse is an officer. So is every pilot. So…if we really feel doing Cyber things actually takes that level of education and STEM academic aptitude, fine, give them all commissions or make them Warrants.

To you last point we’re having a very similar problem with paramedics.

The Army is arguing that a medic and a paramedic are not the same thing. We’ve ackowledged that the skill set and the 18month school make them more like PAs but just shy of a full commission and we want to retain that investment. In recent years the phrase Medical Warrant Officer has started coming into light. Wanna know who is fighting that the hardest? Special Operations. The reason isn’t that guys like oir 18Ds or Nightstalker Medics don’t deserve the pay and benefits of their talents, it’s because we can’t make them warrants without eating into the total pool of authorizations under Congress. You only get one per ODA, so if we make a medical warrant they have to lose the team warrant. Peter to pay Paul.

Cyber isnt going to be in any better a position if we start trying to warrant them, though itll be hysterical to see a C suite guy from Palentir washing cars at Rucker for their social.

 

[BigRed389]

To you last point we’re having a very similar problem with paramedics.

The Army is arguing that a medic and a paramedic are not the same thing. We’ve ackowledged that the skill set and the 18month school make them more like PAs but just shy of a full commission and we want to retain that investment. In recent years the phrase Medical Warrant Officer has started coming into light. Wanna know who is fighting that the hardest? Special Operations. The reason isn’t that guys like oir 18Ds or Nightstalker Medics don’t deserve the pay and benefits of their talents, it’s because we can’t make them warrants without eating into the total pool of authorizations under Congress. You only get one per ODA, so if we make a medical warrant they have to lose the team warrant. Peter to pay Paul.

Cyber isnt going to be in any better a position if we start trying to warrant them, though itll be hysterical to see a C suite guy from Palentir washing cars at Rucker for their social.

Well we just fired a shit load of civilians, so there should be plenty of money to spread to making extra Warrants. Problem solved, thanks DOGE.

Ok more seriously, at the end of the day sure, this shit is all a manpower numbers game for the BUPERS/N1 type nerds. And some of that involves hard choices of not having infinite billets.

So I’m all for giving Cyber what it needs…but it should also be realized that without a lift on whatever those caps are, that might mean some other priorities will take a backseat. Is a Cyber Warrant more of an effect than existing warrants in DOD? I dunno…maybe in the next war. Personally I always thought Space Force was where Cyber was going to end up. I do think it’s an odd fit as it currently is spread across the services.

 

[Hair Warrior]

Rank and File, and these guys are two separate categories of the same problem. Nobody said they were being hired to do the same the same job sets or from the same talent pools.

Look the first thing the Army cyber community needs to do, is not be Army. The metrics to make E5 don’t make sense to the skill set attempting to be created and more importantly kept. The amount of not the job “dumb Army crap” that comes to them defeats what we are trying to cultivate as technology matures. The nature of being another population for the Division/Corps task list means you’ve got a kid who should be a weapon for the next war being passed up for rank, walking around “Iron Horse Ready” or whatever, and pulling gate duty now and again because the installation assigns those by brigades and doesn’t care what your job is. Why would anybody do that vs go get a job in the civilian sector, the retention NCO wonders.

I am full for Cyber being its own branch at this point with its own ladders and metrics because applying what we’re doing right now to skillsets like this will kill us.

No dude, you aren’t getting it. Meta doesn’t know what the hell it’s doing. Just because a company relies on the internet does not mean it has any expertise with OCO or DCO.

Asking Meta employees (execs or front line) to do Army OCO or DCO is like asking your local Jaguar dealership (owner or mechanics) how to do an amphibious landing. There might be a mechanic who knows how…but he learned that skill back when he was in the Marines, not at the Jaguar dealer.

 

[Hair Warrior]

To you last point we’re having a very similar problem with paramedics.

The Army is arguing that a medic and a paramedic are not the same thing. We’ve ackowledged that the skill set and the 18month school make them more like PAs but just shy of a full commission and we want to retain that investment. In recent years the phrase Medical Warrant Officer has started coming into light. Wanna know who is fighting that the hardest? Special Operations. The reason isn’t that guys like oir 18Ds or Nightstalker Medics don’t deserve the pay and benefits of their talents, it’s because we can’t make them warrants without eating into the total pool of authorizations under Congress. You only get one per ODA, so if we make a medical warrant they have to lose the team warrant. Peter to pay Paul.

This is an easy fix: Give Army medics incentive pay and retention bonuses to retain them. Enough money to make it worthwhile. They don’t need a more shiny collar device or a whole different slew of responsibilities, promotion boards, and now-self-paid uniform items.

 

[PhrogPhlyer]

now-self-paid uniform items

Just a question. When did officers get paid uniform items?
At least for my time, late '70s to early '90s, I paid 100% of all my uniform items, including a $700 sword while taking home $225 a pay in TBS.

 

[Hair Warrior]

Just a question. When did officers get paid uniform items?
At least for my time, late '70s to early '90s, I paid 100% of all my uniform items, including a $700 sword while taking home $225 a pay in TBS.

Not sure I understand your question, but US military officers buying their own uniforms goes back to the Revolutionary War.

 

[PhrogPhlyer]

Not sure I understand your question, but US military officers buying their own uniforms goes back to the Revolutionary War.

I'm well aware of this. Then I red your comment.

and now-self-paid uniform items.

I'm just responding to your comment that said "Now self-paid" that in my reading implied that at one point the were not self paid. Hence my questions.

 

[Hair Warrior]

I'm just responding to your comment that said "Now self-paid" that in my reading implied that at one point the were not self paid. Hence my questions.

If they are currently enlisted Army medics who get commissioned as a warrant as a mechanism to increase pay/retention, per Lawman’s post, then they used to get free uniforms but would no longer be eligible upon commissioning.

 

[Flash]

Total authorizations of SES positions and the way money and contracting works. The current technology director to the Chief of Staff is an SWS-2. He was an Intel contractor for the military in his earlier life and then went to Palantir....This has precedent back to events like WWII. We made people Col’s and Generals but gave them none of the commander roles, they were project leaders....

...Quite frankly, the CTO of Palantir is punching way down commissioning as an O5….in his private sector job, his actual counterparts in professional interactions would typically be Flag/General Officers.

For the Det 201 mission, jury’s still out on what the hell the point is. I think they have a lot to offer, but they can do the whole “part time” advisor or consultant thing just fine without the uniform. That’s not really a role where Title X, UCMJ, Geneva Conventions or whatever matters much at all

It isn't an either or proposition with them being Officers or GS's (or equivalent), they can be official advisors as well. There are existing entities on which they could serve or if the DoD wanted to create a new entity that utilized civilians in an official advisory capacity, there is plenty of precedence for it to happen. Absolutely no need for a uniform or to bring them into the civil service full time.

I am well aware of the precedence in World War II but that was a whole of society effort that was required and not equal to our situation now. Subsequently we successfully mobilized industry and folk's expertise to handle big problems by creating entities that utilized them, not only in DoD but other government departments and agencies as well, and without commissioning them.

This seems like nothing more than fluff and theater.

 

[PhrogPhlyer]

If they are currently enlisted Army medics who get commissioned as a warrant

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Lawman]

This is an easy fix: Give Army medics incentive pay and retention bonuses to retain them. Enough money to make it worthwhile. They don’t need a more shiny collar device or a whole different slew of responsibilities, promotion boards, and now-self-paid uniform items.

If only it were that simple.

The reason the warrant idea is so attractive is that it’s not the money that’s making these folks leave. They don’t want to be 1SGs. They became paramedics because these are the people that want to be working in ER/Trauma. They live for the job not the other Army admin and they’ve spent a good chunk of career honing that skill set. The Warrant idea is the “can’t be used for ____” outside the job technique.

I tell my dad this problem and he just looks at me like “shouldn’t have gotten rid of the Spec ranks.” He’s right because in his time the hospital was full of Spec6/7s who were masters of their trade and happy without the leadership stuff. We need that back, but the Army got convinced we need to make NCOs and every enlisted person should be a “leader” even the bad ones and the ones that don’t want to do it.

The E7 working here to be the medevac SME for doctrine development is exactly this person. He no question makes E8 for promotion and he doesn’t want it, because that means he never works in an ER again.

 

[Swanee]

To you last point we’re having a very similar problem with paramedics.

The Army is arguing that a medic and a paramedic are not the same thing. We’ve ackowledged that the skill set and the 18month school make them more like PAs but just shy of a full commission and we want to retain that investment. In recent years the phrase Medical Warrant Officer has started coming into light. Wanna know who is fighting that the hardest? Special Operations. The reason isn’t that guys like oir 18Ds or Nightstalker Medics don’t deserve the pay and benefits of their talents, it’s because we can’t make them warrants without eating into the total pool of authorizations under Congress. You only get one per ODA, so if we make a medical warrant they have to lose the team warrant. Peter to pay Paul.

Cyber isnt going to be in any better a position if we start trying to warrant them, though itll be hysterical to see a C suite guy from Palentir washing cars at Rucker for their social.

Sounds like the Armed Service Committees need to do their job and get congress to up those allocations.

 

[Lawman]

Sounds like the Armed Service Committees need to do their job and get congress to up those allocations.

The current Army G1 warrant was one of my early IPs when I was a young new WOJG, and the couple other guys working at Prof Force Management I know are the same kind of way back dudes.

It’s crazy to hear the bureaucracy and horse trading these guys have to do with regards to X branch/job/mtoe is losing these 30 seats, but we’re gaining over here, what about bonus authorizations… etc

What is really gonna be ugly is the massive overpopulation we have in a couple year groups thanks to the wonky things Covid did with the throughput. Theres a big wave coming into a promotion zone with sub 50% on the other side in authorized seats. After years of just assumed promotions in the warrant world because we were so under strength that is gonna be a brutal hit to absorb.