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Really stupid questions about life as a SWO and anything else not aviation related [mod dog wuz hərə]

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
A few questions.

1. Regarding the LT who went to England, at what point do seamanship skills become less necessary, giving way to automation, somewhat analogous to the aviation community's UAV development? One of the big selling points of the Zumwalt destroyers is the significantly reduced crew size and efficiency. At what point do the seamanship skills just become redundant? I know this is kind of a silly question, but worth asking I think.

1. Go read the article on the USNI/Proceedings website and get your answers from a card-carrying SWO who is trying to raise consciousness on these issues.

2. Reducing crew size and adding automation DOES NOT excuse anyone from learning and practicing basic seamanship nor does it equate to UAV/UAS development. The latter is analagous to Unmanned Surface Vessels and in all cases, despite there not being a human in the platform, there is a human practicing basic airmanship and seamanship from afar...and notably in the case of the Air Force and their Predators, not always doing it that well as losses to human error are significantly higher than in manned platfroms, but that's another story. The point I think you're trying to make equates to advent of the Head's Up Display and first computers/nav systems in aircraft in the mid to late 60s giving rise to the term "HUD cripples". The early Inertial Navigation Systems (INS) were an awesome navigation aid, but DID NOT substitute for basic airmanship and situational awareness. More than one aircraft has been lost to aviators relying solely on their black boxes and not using their heads. So, if you haven't figured out the my answer to your question, it's never to both questions.

2. If SWO Ensigns and JGs really have a problem with their treatment and consider it a detriment to training (someone help me out on this one, whether this Ensign 'abuse' helps or hurts), then why don't they go to someone in charge as a group and make their case? Surely there is a way for these issues to be discussed, right? And yes, I'm fully aware that its usually not smart for FNGs to come in and immediately want to change things or whine about their treatment, but there's gotta be at least SOME recourse for these Ensigns.

The Navy is not Utopia and often times, it's the CO who sets and fosters the culture so you think the CO is going to change because a group of Ensigns deosn't like how they're being treated? I daresay that would make things worse. It's not like every ship is a repeat of The Caine Mutiny, but thinking "Surely there is a way for these issues to be discussed"....right!

Of course, not to say there haven't been similar poor command climates in aviation because no community or business is immune from the rule of a tyrant. I was in a squadron like that during my first cruise and every one of the pilots threw their letters or went to the reserves whereas retention under his successor totally reversed the trend. It was a sigh of relief when his car wasn't in his spot and he'd put JOs in HAC because that's what his JO skipper did. Irony was (this answers another question posed), he made flag because often times, a tyrant only appears that way from below whereas superiors see a driven, focused commander who gets results. His relief only made O-6 but did command a carrier and rehabilitated a wounded, broken morale situation.

On that note, I get the impression that there is a lot more 'fear-of-rank' in the SWO community than in aviation. Not to say that I would pop off at an winged LT or anything, but I feel like higher-ranking officers are much more accessible here than if I were a SWO.

That is true in most aviation communities especially TACAIR because in the cockpit, callsigns are used and often times rank isn't even in the equation although quals (like Division lead) or Mission Commander/Strike Lead are used during a mission/sortie. To me, that is a great equalizer especially in high tempo combat ops. You might be the lead for a package tomorrow and the aviator supporting you is leading the next day so ass clownery and tyrannical behavior gets weaned out if it erupts. I actually liked it better in the day before rank was worn on flightsuits. Much of what occurs in the air translates into the Ready Room. In all my squadrons, the Skipper and XO were addressed that way, but 0-4 and below were addressed by callsign. This is carried even further in NSW/SPECOPS realm where rank is rarely seen and sometimes irrelevant. Expertise and rep mean a lot more and everyone from officer to enlisted is on a first name/nickname basis. Aviators serving in NSW units are quite at home with this culture as a result. Not so easy for the smattering of SWOs.

3. Why does it seem like the SWO community as a whole has not seemed to recognize the stigmas attached to their community, and actively taken steps to rectify it instead of just accepting it as a reality of the job? Personally, I'd take a page out of the Marine Corps' training book and ensure that every training action taken has a purpose. Even rationalizing actions as 'stress management' would probably make a difference.

Have to ask them.

Keep in mind that I'm asking these questions knowing that I have exactly 24 days at sea, and a resulting saltiness factor of about zero. I'm not going to presume to know how the SWO world works, just posing the questions.

That is what this thread is for (so you don't get flamed).
 

Bedrok12

New Member
Stupid Questions about the SWO life

Hey everyone I am currently filing my application for OCS and am going SWO. I was wondering if I should apply for Amphibious Forces or VBSS after OCS? Which one is more exciting on a daily basis? Which one gets more hands on training? Thanks
 

RadicalDude

Social Justice Warlord
Hey everyone I am currently filing my application for OCS and am going SWO. I was wondering if I should apply for Amphibious Forces or VBSS after OCS? Which one is more exciting on a daily basis? Which one gets more hands on training? Thanks

VBSS is an auxiliary duty. You could, in theory, be in the Amphib Navy and also be VBSS officer.

General consensus from my SWO friends is that Gator Navy is more relaxed than small boys... but that varies from ship to ship.
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I think maybe you're not quite getting what those are. "Amphibious Forces" would just be doing the same SWO JO job as any other, but on an Amphib.

VBSS is a collateral job while a SWO JO, not a seperate designator, and you're usually assigned to it by the CO/XO.
 

helolumpy

Apprentice School Principal
pilot
Contributor
Based on numerous discussions with multiple SWO's, if you want command, you need to go AEGIS and stay AEGIS.
Amphib guys do important work, but they don't run the SWO world, AEGIS guys do.
(Kind of like Hornet pilots in Aviation).
I know you're new and are looking for fun and excitment, but if you want to go far in the Navy you need to go to a CG or DDG.
 

BigRed389

Registered User
None
Hey everyone I am currently filing my application for OCS and am going SWO. I was wondering if I should apply for Amphibious Forces or VBSS after OCS? Which one is more exciting on a daily basis? Which one gets more hands on training? Thanks

Or you could go on an amphib and do VBSS there.
 

navy09

Registered User
None
As others have said, every ship in the Navy (save for big decks maybe) has a VBSS team so don't let that be your deciding factor. Shooters (anything ending in a 'G') and amphibs (anything starting with an 'L') have very different missions but at the end of the day you're still a SWO JO- the job probably doesn't differ much ship to ship.
 

SWO Bubba

Well-Known Member
None
Based on numerous discussions with multiple SWO's, if you want command, you need to go AEGIS and stay AEGIS.
Amphib guys do important work, but they don't run the SWO world, AEGIS guys do.
(Kind of like Hornet pilots in Aviation).
I know you're new and are looking for fun and excitment, but if you want to go far in the Navy you need to go to a CG or DDG.

Let me backup Phrog'sShoeWife: Absolutely and emphatically not true and never has been! The is a folklore even within the SWO community about AEGIS left over from the '80s and early '90s. Platform diversity is a plus and the best time to crossover is during the two Division Officers tours in the first 4 years of service.
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
...Platform diversity is a plus ...

I'd never heard that you should 'go Aegis and stay Aegis'. It was always understood that if you were CRUDES one tour, you should go 'Phibs for your next, and vice-versa.

Since it came up, how are 'non-mainstream' jobs for SWOJOs looked at nowadays? Beachmaster, ACU, Tomahawk, RIVRON, like that? Late '90's - early '00's, the conventional wisdom was that going those routes permanently sidetracked you, and it was strongly discouraged if you wanted to even have a hope of commanding anything someday.
 

skim

Teaching MIDN how to drift a BB
None
Contributor
There is now a new expeditionary swo career path for RIVRON and the like. Its on PERS-41. I would like to go the NECC path, and if it means being side tracked, so be it.
 

Steve Shedd

PERS-41 Detailer
None
Since it came up, how are 'non-mainstream' jobs for SWOJOs looked at nowadays? Beachmaster, ACU, Tomahawk, RIVRON, like that? Late '90's - early '00's, the conventional wisdom was that going those routes permanently sidetracked you, and it was strongly discouraged if you wanted to even have a hope of commanding anything someday.

Not discouraged at all. The Surface Warfare Enterprise guidance is three out of the four initial sea tours for SWOs (2 divo and 2 DH) need to be mainstream. The 2nd Divo Tour or 2nd DH Tour offer the best opportunity to do the non-traditional tours. They do no sidetrack you at all and there have been many who have gone on to screen for Command.
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
plummer1984 said:
are there boats anywhere in Chicago - I can stationed on. I am sorry duty stations is so new to me.

Of course there are. The US Navy is standing by on the Great Lakes in case those f---ing Canadians decide to settle the score for 1812.
 
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