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Re-select E2/C2 out of primary again for FY13 studs?
- Thread starter Grizzly
- Start date
Some rumors (like the strike topoff syllabus out of the primary VTs) become reality. I've heard the E2/C2 rumor longer though. Realistically it doesn't make a difference where it's selected from the student prospective. Those who want it will put it first and the community is still going to draft people when it needs to. From an advanced pipeline management perspective, there are merits to moving it back to the old way and merits for keeping it the way it is. Someone from the community could speak to any noticeable differences in the finished product, skill wise. I suspect their isn't, but that there may be a more of a morale deficit amongst some of the new pilots at- 120 with the current system that relies heavily on individual wing and squadron student management (they don't all do it the same way from my understanding). Do your best through all phases of training either way and remember that in big Navy's eyes, you're and officer first, regardless of the platform you get to fly.
It was switched to the "new way" to encourage healthy competition in the J1/J2 selection pipeline since everyone essentially gets a flavor of F-18 right now. I would be interested as to why there is a movement to push it back to the old way. Cost savings in identifying the platform early?
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
What I saw, as a retread in that syllabus is that doing 44s last was not a good plan.
First of all, you get guys in the CV mindset, then send them to P3 land, then have to get them back to thinking like a carrier aviator.
Second, going from being all but qualified as a NA, to then being treated like, well, how VT(prop) treats students is kind of a bummer for the E2/C2 studs. Not the end of the world, but the guys coming behind my RAG class (which was pretty much the last of the "old style" 44s then 45s) was that they were not treated too well at 31. I don't know how much of that was they were being treated like normal 31 studs, which is a lot less like an adult that studs in Krock were treated in the last part of the syllabus.
Third... ME is not that hard. Really. It's not. I could have gone from the 60, to the 45 to the -2 without the 44.
First of all, you get guys in the CV mindset, then send them to P3 land, then have to get them back to thinking like a carrier aviator.
Second, going from being all but qualified as a NA, to then being treated like, well, how VT(prop) treats students is kind of a bummer for the E2/C2 studs. Not the end of the world, but the guys coming behind my RAG class (which was pretty much the last of the "old style" 44s then 45s) was that they were not treated too well at 31. I don't know how much of that was they were being treated like normal 31 studs, which is a lot less like an adult that studs in Krock were treated in the last part of the syllabus.
Third... ME is not that hard. Really. It's not. I could have gone from the 60, to the 45 to the -2 without the 44.
I do agree, and I also think that ME isn't rocket surgery. I would say, however, that flying big wing multi is a much different mindset than flying little airplanes. I just like the current system because it encourages healthy competition and in the end, everyone is a winner anyway. I am of the mindset that our top performers should be given the opportunity to select Strike. That is why we have a NSS cutoff and why it is at the top of the selection pecking order.
If only they would further break out selection choices into Strike, E-2, and COD. I bet suddenly the competion would be much different, with many of the smarter dudes who formerly wanted to fly little jets wanting a few of those coveted COD slots.
"E-2's are my first choice of platform selection" - said no primary student ever.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
That would have to be changed at the RAG.. Currently, COD vs E2 is literally pulling ID cards out of a hat. No shit.
Cuz if you can fly a Bravo, you can fly anything.
I have no dog in this fight anymore, but my impression at the time was that it was a good thing (the new system). Everyone in J1/intermediate got a fair shake at the jet, and jet IP's (rather than primary helo and P-3 IP's) got to make the determination about who had the aptitude to continue on into strike. Granted sometimes it just came down to numbers and luck, but by and large when I was there, the guys and gals who went E2/C2 went there for a reason. Nothing wrong with that, and they weren't bad aviators, but 90% of the time, it was based on performance. I can't imagine that the old system would have made as fair of an assessment. Having P-3 and helo instructors deciding who is cut for jets is not the answer IMO. No offense to my brethren in our esteemed fellow communities, but I think the current system is more logical.
I can see what MB is talking about, and all of my E2C2 friends said those things when they were going through VT-multi and -120, but that alone IMHO doesn't make the new system wrong. There are plenty of indignities in flight school to go around.
I can see what MB is talking about, and all of my E2C2 friends said those things when they were going through VT-multi and -120, but that alone IMHO doesn't make the new system wrong. There are plenty of indignities in flight school to go around.
I don't disagree that the new system sounds better, but for the record, those P-3 and helo guys don't decide where you go, they only give the grades. That's no different in either system.
Absolutely. I just think that the grades in intermediate jet are more relevant to one's aptitude towards flying a jet than grades from primary. Granted phase I jet isn't real tactical (hell phase II isn't either), but it is more representative of both the flying as well as the expectations overall. With the new system, we give primary IP's the ability to grade a guy, and subjectively say "hey this dude learns stuff quick and is better than average"......which translates to potentially getting that tailhook gig. But it still leaves the VFA (and other) guys in the jet VT's to really break down who is going to go where. I think that's fair for everyone.
I'd argue it also gives an option to the guys who get to strike or BFM and decide that they really don't like pulling Gs or pointing at the ground or fighting another airplane. There were a couple of guys in Kingsville who did that. They were afforded the ability to stay in the Tailhook community rather than simply failing out of flight school.
Gotcha. Makes sense.
I think it boils down to quality spread (i.e. the E-2 and COD world are noticing a declining trend in the quality they're getting at the RAG and they want to change it back to the old way). One of their main arguments is the lower historical DQ rates at the boat from the legacy selectees and the deduction that although it wasn't T-45/jet flight time, the T-44 training coming before the jet obviously had some benefit since those DQ rates were significantly lower than they are currently. Would it also be cheaper? Yes.
It's hard to find anyone in the VAW/VRC community who had it down as their first choice out of primary. It wasn't mine. (I requested P-3s, E-2/C-2, J2, J1). Only 1 P-3 spot that week, he had a 58, I had a 55. The Navy gave me my second choice. Tough to complain about that. We showed up to VT-31, enjoyed it because it was easier than primary and the T-44 was pretty simple to fly. Anyone who was still pissed off about primary selection had at least 3 months in Corpus to drink away their sorrows. Then we went to Kingsville. No one was that pissed off anymore; you knew pretty much all of the other E-2/C-2 guys, and you enjoyed your time because you were just a little bit saltier, knew a little bit more about how to play the game, and were just happy to be in a laid-back place that actually seemed to place emphasis on being a good dude and a good stick. You entered the tailhook world, got your wings, and were on top of the world.
Then you went to Norfolk and got kicked in the jimmy. Topic for a different thread.
Personally, I noticed a different attitude amongst the guys showing up in the community who were Tailhook vice Legacy E-2/C-2. Not always as strong in the airplane and behind the ship, maybe a bit of a chip on their shoulder because they hadn't gotten jets, it was tough to nail down exactly but it was definitely different. Didn't apply 100% of the time, but more often than not it did.
Is it a bad deal for some of the kids who will get drafted E-2/C-2 out of primary? Sure, but at least now they know it was a pure objective decision based on not much besides luck, timing, and needs of the Navy. That's better, I think, than some kid getting quality spread drafted that way after finishing the Tailhook Intermediate syllabus.
Bottom line, every community needs strong players. You'll grow where you're planted, quality spread or not. Hopefully, people will look back and talk about the 7 year blip when the Navy tried to change things up, only to decide that it didn't need changing in the first place. History repeats itself. Again.
It's hard to find anyone in the VAW/VRC community who had it down as their first choice out of primary. It wasn't mine. (I requested P-3s, E-2/C-2, J2, J1). Only 1 P-3 spot that week, he had a 58, I had a 55. The Navy gave me my second choice. Tough to complain about that. We showed up to VT-31, enjoyed it because it was easier than primary and the T-44 was pretty simple to fly. Anyone who was still pissed off about primary selection had at least 3 months in Corpus to drink away their sorrows. Then we went to Kingsville. No one was that pissed off anymore; you knew pretty much all of the other E-2/C-2 guys, and you enjoyed your time because you were just a little bit saltier, knew a little bit more about how to play the game, and were just happy to be in a laid-back place that actually seemed to place emphasis on being a good dude and a good stick. You entered the tailhook world, got your wings, and were on top of the world.
Then you went to Norfolk and got kicked in the jimmy. Topic for a different thread.
Personally, I noticed a different attitude amongst the guys showing up in the community who were Tailhook vice Legacy E-2/C-2. Not always as strong in the airplane and behind the ship, maybe a bit of a chip on their shoulder because they hadn't gotten jets, it was tough to nail down exactly but it was definitely different. Didn't apply 100% of the time, but more often than not it did.
Is it a bad deal for some of the kids who will get drafted E-2/C-2 out of primary? Sure, but at least now they know it was a pure objective decision based on not much besides luck, timing, and needs of the Navy. That's better, I think, than some kid getting quality spread drafted that way after finishing the Tailhook Intermediate syllabus.
Bottom line, every community needs strong players. You'll grow where you're planted, quality spread or not. Hopefully, people will look back and talk about the 7 year blip when the Navy tried to change things up, only to decide that it didn't need changing in the first place. History repeats itself. Again.
If they did that, and I could go back and do it all again, I would work my ass off for the COD spot. What a life....
Seriously. I've heard from E-2/C-2 buddies that the current system is still a lot like the one MB described above. Studs are told before class-up how many COD slots there are, and that they need to figure out who is getting them. I've heard about cards in hats/buckets/trash cans, drawing straws, etc...and supposedly it isn't unusual for people to drop thousands of dollars in order to buy a slot. Unreal.