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Racism in the Military

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
It's pretty easy to condemn something that doesn't affect you. I'm in no way defending slavery, but the places that were condemning it were largely industrialized. The south was still an agricultural system. North of the Mason-Dixon line they may have denounced the evils of slavery (and why wouldn't they, considering it had no effect on their economy), but they were still largely a racist society. If the south was industrialized to the extent of the north or the UK, I'd bet they would have been just as willing to ban such an evil practice.

Many European colonies, especially those in the Caribbean, long relied on slave labor and it did have an economic impact on the home countries.

While it might be fun to speculate what the south may or may have not done if they had industrialized it is largely the fault of southern leaders, particularly the planter class, made the conscious choice to put most of their eggs in the agricultural basket. They also chose to rely almost exclusively on slave labor to do the literal heavy lifting to help produce their cash crops. The end of slavery was coming, they were too willfully shortsighted to see it.
 

DanMa1156

Is it baseball season yet?
pilot
Contributor
The Constitution of the United States at the time specifically allowed and regulated slavery. If we want to go this route, not a single officer should have supported the union.

And at the time, state political leaders believed that participation in the Union was voluntary - that was the whole basis for secession in the first place.

If you're referencing the 3/5th compromise, I'd be hard pressed into believing that's what "regulated" slavery. You're also assuming that the outset of the war was based on slavery, but I also assume you're also going to tell me the larger picture was states' rights as others have mentioned in this thread, in which case, I feel like you're having your cake and eating it too. You can't tell me that it wasn't about slavery, it was about states' rights, but then say "slavery was allowed in the constitution at the time and that's why they should have resigned their commissions!"

I'll agree with your second part that some political leaders believed participation was voluntary. However, and if I had better internet right now, I'd find it, but if I recall, some of the earliest founding fathers like Adams, Madison, and Jefferson (?) had written of a "permanent" union and had previously addressed the idea of secession as being a non-starter once you join the union.
 

DanMa1156

Is it baseball season yet?
pilot
Contributor
You’re forgetting the fact that they all resigned their United States commissions and formally/publicly renounced their loyalty to the United States prior to joining the Confederate forces.

The way the acted was considered honorable and above board at the time.

And yet today, we see barely any monuments honoring southerners who continued to stay on the Union side, which is what I think we consider honorable today.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
You're also assuming that the outset of the war was based on slavery, but I also assume you're also going to tell me the larger picture was states' rights
You assume wrong. I said in a post right above yours that the south went to war to preserve slavery.

My point is that the Constitution at the time endorsed slavery, and the south fought for the right to retain this practice. Pointing out that Lee's loyalty is to the Constitution is actually an argument to support his defection to the Confederacy.

Stuff about founding fathers...
How many times have you refused to obey an order because of a Jefferson quote? How did that go for you?
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
And yet today, we see barely any monuments honoring southerners who continued to stay on the Union side, which is what I think we consider honorable today.
Which is understandable since all those statues of Confederates were erected based on the times and not based on values from decades or a century in the future.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Many European colonies, especially those in the Caribbean, long relied on slave labor and it did have an economic impact on the home countries.

While it might be fun to speculate what the south may or may have not done if they had industrialized it is largely the fault of southern leaders, particularly the planter class, made the conscious choice to put most of their eggs in the agricultural basket. They also chose to rely almost exclusively on slave labor to do the literal heavy lifting to help produce their cash crops. The end of slavery was coming, they were too willfully shortsighted to see it.
And that's one of the reasons they lost the war. No industry to spin up for wartime production of armaments, no railroads for logistics or troop movements, and 38 percent of the population enslaved and unavailable for military service.
 

Treetop Flyer

Well-Known Member
pilot
And yet today, we see barely any monuments honoring southerners who continued to stay on the Union side, which is what I think we consider honorable today.
Lots of love for Sam Houston in Texas, although he had made his name long before the war
 

DanMa1156

Is it baseball season yet?
pilot
Contributor
Which is understandable since all those statues of Confederates were erected based on the times and not based on values from decades or a century in the future.
So would you not agree that today's statues should reflect today's values?
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
So would you not agree that today's statues should reflect today's values?
We’ve been through this before, as a nation. Statues are art and art never reflects values...it reflects the vision of the artist or the vision of the commissioner. Indeed, of all the things a society can hang its hat on an imaginary set of singular “values” we all share should rank right up there with the wind...always shifting, never there. Sadly I have come to the belief that there are two options...either all public art is allowed to stay or all public art must go. Of course that is just an opinion and carries the same weight of societal values...none.

 

DanMa1156

Is it baseball season yet?
pilot
Contributor
We’ve been through this before, as a nation. Statues are art and art never reflects values...it reflects the vision of the artist or the vision of the commissioner. Indeed, of all the things a society can hang its hat on an imaginary set of singular “values” we all share should rank right up there with the wind...always shifting, never there. Sadly I have come to the belief that there are two options...either all public art is allowed to stay or all public art must go. Of course that is just an opinion and carries the same weight of societal values...none.


We've also been through that there's a difference between a memorial and an statue honoring someone's accomplishments. Let's honor people like Farragut and not provide honor to people like Lee. Personal opinion.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
We've also been through that there's a difference between a memorial and an statue honoring someone's accomplishments. Let's honor people like Farragut and not provide honor to people like Lee. Personal opinion.
Maybe we should not honor anybody like that. Let the stuff that hangs on their wall and the mention of their names in books be enough. Pappy Boyington was right...”Show me a hero and I’ll show you a bum.”
 
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taxi1

Well-Known Member
pilot
Maybe we should not honor anybody like that. Let the stuff that hangs on their wall and the mention of their names in books be enough. Pappy Boyington was right...”Show me a hero and I’ll show you a bum.”
Easy now...sometimes heroes don’t wear capes. But they do win national championships and get statues while they’re still working there.

Nick_Saban_statue.jpg
 
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