Question on ejector seat training

[Alex]

I would like to know to what extent the military provides training on the decision to use ejector seats. It seems to me that there are some clear cut cases where the use of the ejection seat is the obvious option (e.g., both wings get shot off). However, what about "grey areas" where it may not be so obvious?

This question popped to mind when I was viewing the in cockpit video of a student jet pilot that botched a landing. He thought the jet was out of control after a hard bounce and decided to eject. The jet subsequently came down on the runway, veered to the right and rolled into the grass before coming to rest, completely intact. Obviously, the decision to eject was not the right one.

So my question boils down to what the military does to develop this decision making for pilots. Do they put them in simulators and let them experience what I call "grey areas" so they can see for themselves what conditions warrant an ejection and what don't? Or does the military simply provide pilots a laundry list of conditions under which they should eject?

Thanks for your help,
Alex

 

[squeeze]

You've just shown why they don't tell us exactly when/why we have to eject.... monday-morning quarterbacking at its best. So the jet survived... does that mean he shouldn't have ejected? No. If the pilot believed it was out of control too close to the ground, he should have ejected. The decision to eject is made on the ground before you even go flying.... you decide that if you are in a situation that you cannot handle and the jet is out of control, you get out.

For the T-45, there are only a few conditions where NATOPS mandates ejection...

1) Flameout below 1,500 AGL and 180 kts
2) OCF passing 10,000 AGL
3) Engine failure on catapult launch
4) Engine/GTS fire with secondary indications
5) Engine fire on takeoff and unable to abort
6) Complete HYDFAIL and unable to control a/c

Those are the only times that they say you HAVE to eject per NATOPS. Wing SOP added departing the runway to the list. Otherwise, it's the pilot's discretion. Even on my first backseat ride in the jet, the IP told me "if it looks like we're going to die, and you should know even by now when that is, don't wait for me to tell you to get out." The number one cause of death among pilots in ejection seat aircraft is "failure to eject." Plain and simple.

As far as sims go... ya... you get to experience all kinds of situations that would kill you in the jet, and you try to develop an idea when and where to pull the oh **** handle. I would imagine the training helps, but hope to never find out.

Does that answer the questions at all?

 

[Alex]

Thanks for the info, squeeze.

I’m surprised that a cold cat shot isn’t on the list of mandatory ejections (or can a T-45 get off a carrier without the cat?).

Back to the original subject, what your IP told you is what I’m trying to get at. You can determine when a situation has gotten out of control, but will you do so as quickly as a pilot with 5,000 hours of experience? Especially if it is a unique situation not specifically covered in training? I’ve read that the number one reason for an unsuccessful ejection is that the ejection decision is delayed. So I’m wondering if the military provides any training to help pilots more quickly identify unrecoverable situations?

As a comparison, I know that prospective submarine officers are put through diving simulations where an emergency blow is the only way of saving the sub. If the blow is performed too late, the sub, and all hands are lost.

 

[Alex]

Whoops - didn't see your edited reply, squeeze. That's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks again.

 

[nittany03]

I came upon this thread after studying my T-34 NATOPS and had a similar thought. Why are you supposed to eject from a T-45 from OCF below 10,000ft AGL, whereas the T-34 NATOPs specifies bailout (a much more time-consuming method of exiting an a/c) at a much lower altitude (5,000 AGL for OCF)?

 

[EODDave]

Because we are traveling at a higher speed with greater vertical velocities.

 

[Fly Navy]

Thanks for the info, squeeze.

I’m surprised that a cold cat shot isn’t on the list of mandatory ejections (or can a T-45 get off a carrier without the cat?).

Back to the original subject, what your IP told you is what I’m trying to get at. You can determine when a situation has gotten out of control, but will you do so as quickly as a pilot with 5,000 hours of experience? Especially if it is a unique situation not specifically covered in training? I’ve read that the number one reason for an unsuccessful ejection is that the ejection decision is delayed. So I’m wondering if the military provides any training to help pilots more quickly identify unrecoverable situations?

As a comparison, I know that prospective submarine officers are put through diving simulations where an emergency blow is the only way of saving the sub. If the blow is performed too late, the sub, and all hands are lost.

The human body and brain has a pretty good idea when it's about to die or get hurt.

Also, the only recovered flat spin in a F-14 Tomcat was after the crew ejected... does that mean they shouldn't have? Remember, hindsight is always 20/20. (In that case, the F-14 recovered BECAUSE they ejected, so I kinda tricked you there).

 

[Fly Navy]

I came upon this thread after studying my T-34 NATOPS and had a similar thought. Why are you supposed to eject from a T-45 from OCF below 10,000ft AGL, whereas the T-34 NATOPs specifies bailout (a much more time-consuming method of exiting an a/c) at a much lower altitude (5,000 AGL for OCF)?

I wish I had that video of a T-45 in an inverted spin... I think they started at something like 30k and recovered at like 15k... that's why they eject.

 

[Punk]

I came upon this thread after studying my T-34 NATOPS and had a similar thought. Why are you supposed to eject from a T-45 from OCF below 10,000ft AGL, whereas the T-34 NATOPs specifies bailout (a much more time-consuming method of exiting an a/c) at a much lower altitude (5,000 AGL for OCF)?

like squeeze said, we're falling out of the sky alot faster

I’m surprised that a cold cat shot isn’t on the list of mandatory ejections (or can a T-45 get off a carrier without the cat?).

that falls under aircraft settling off catapult

 

[nittany03]

Because we are traveling at a higher speed with greater vertical velocities.

:dunce_125 Point taken.

 

[squeeze]

Thanks for the info, squeeze.

I’m surprised that a cold cat shot isn’t on the list of mandatory ejections (or can a T-45 get off a carrier without the cat?).

Well, there's settling off the cat....
Maintain 24 units, if unable, eject

so ya....that's a mando-ejection one too if you can't stop the settle.

And ya...the T-34C falls nice and gently even OCF.... The 45 is a rock...if memory serves, in an upright spin, you're losing ~1,000 ft per turn and each turn only takes 3-4 seconds... That's up to 20,000 ft/min - doesn't give you that much time to recover. The T-34C was around 9-12k/min if I recall. Both only leave you with about 30 seconds before you go splat.

 

[petescheu]

That's why I love my yellow and black handle. In the T-6 we the ACEs ejection seat (we could punch from 300 feet inverted and supposedly still live, not that I want to try that), and we still had to eject out of control at 10,000 feet on the Baro as well. Not sure if that had as high a sink rate as the T-45 or no. I think maybe it's just standard for any ejection seat A/C... punch OCF below 10k. I do know that high VSIs on punching is not so safe. Maybe a fleet NACES dude could bring some more light to that.

 

[zuggerat]

definitely beats crap outa six flags

 

[ea6bflyr]

The only time I ever thought about Ejecting was in the TA-4. We went OCF during an ACM hop at around 21K. Recovered about 13K....that's a lot of altitude to lose. I just kept thinking, "if we hit 10K, I'm gonna be pulling the handle....oh, crap!" The worst part was that we were winning, until we called "Knock it off."

And to answer the previous question: You will have so many Emergency Simulators (EP Sims), that you'll get a good idea when to give the jet back to the taxpayers. The IP's will push you to your limits until you say uncle and pull the handle.
ea6bflyr

 

[Banjo33]

definitely beats crap outa six flags

Shoulda flown the T-2! Talk about a rollercoaster.....