Purchasing a Rifle/Scope

[A7Dave]

Re: the Primary Arms scope you're looking at, at that price, I'd avoid it. I have no experience with their product, but at that price, you're talking cheap glass and cheap Chicom manufacture. At 100 yards, it may work adequately, but the odds that the elevation and windage adjustments will be accurate and repeatable are very low. In most cases, you get what you pay for.

As around on AR15.com for real life experience with that scope. Someone will have shot it. If you cheap out on your scope, you'll regret the wasted money. You don't need to buy a Nightforce, but avoid the low end Chicom products. You'd be better off with a Nikon, or a lower end Leupold/Redfield or Burris.

 

[Gatordev]

Dave, the Primary Arms scopes are generally getting rave reviews. Not all of their stuff is still made in China, either. I completely get what you're saying and if it was me (and it was a few years ago), I'd save up a little longer and getting something a little more. I'm guessing the issue Hoya is running into is that he likes the idea of a FFP scope and guys like Nikon and Leupold don't offer those at the low end.

As someone who is totally sold on FFP scopes, I went with a 2.5-10 IOR Valdada FFP Mil/Mil scope with an MLR-type reticule. It weighs on ounce more than a Nightforce, is FFP, and doesn't have the stupid MILDOTs which are pretty antiquated by today's standards. The Viper PST is very similar with slightly less optical clarity, but all the other features and has some great reviews, as well and costs less than the IOR. I ran my IOR through a Magpul SPR class and another guy was running a PST and both did fine.

Ironically, I think I have a tracking problem on my Nightforce 3-15...the same scope everyone says is the most durable piece of equipment ever(!!!) and for my eyes, I don't notice a substantially clearer piece of glass.

 

[Hopeful Hoya]

I'm not set on any specific features of the scope (such as FFP or mil reticule/mil adjustments), I was just looking at those features because I thought it would be easier to learn the proper ranging and adjustments to make, especially since I have no experience whatsoever with higher powered scopes like these.

I guess the question is if I went with a better quality scope (like Leupold or Nikon) that had a simple duplex reticule and MOA adjustments, how much steeper would the learning curve be?

 

[AndreasW]

I'm not set on any specific features of the scope (such as FFP or mil reticule/mil adjustments), I was just looking at those features because I thought it would be easier to learn the proper ranging and adjustments to make, especially since I have no experience whatsoever with higher powered scopes like these.

I guess the question is if I went with a better quality scope (like Leupold or Nikon) that had a simple duplex reticule and MOA adjustments, how much steeper would the learning curve be?

It is usually only as difficult as you make it. Learning won't be very hard. A lot of informative stuff on YouTube and ar15.com about using scopes. I would agree with getting something that will last and you can enjoy for a while. I am not a fan of BDC or the mil dots, glorified Kentucky windage. Something you will probably get bored with after a while. If you are really uncertain, buy super cheap and figure what you like and don't like in a scope. Leupolds usually hold their price well, so you shouldn't have to much trouble selling it if you decide on something different.

 

[Gatordev]

It is usually only as difficult as you make it. Learning won't be very hard. A lot of informative stuff on YouTube and ar15.com about using scopes. I would agree with getting something that will last and you can enjoy for a while. I am not a fan of BDC or the mil dots, glorified Kentucky windage. Something you will probably get bored with after a while. If you are really uncertain, buy super cheap and figure what you like and don't like in a scope. Leupolds usually hold their price well, so you shouldn't have to much trouble selling it if you decide on something different.

I agree. I would recommend you keep your reticule the same as your turrets. It just makes it easier to initially understand what the hell you're supposed to be doing. I completely agree about BDC scopes for a precision-focused scope...they're not really all that useful. Besides, once you get some data for your load and gun, you can generate you're own BDC for your reticule with your dope.

FWIW, when I bought my first scope, I wasn't sure I was going to enjoy precision shooting, so I grabbed a cheap Millet Mil/Mil scope and put it on a 5.56 gun to see what I thought. It did what I needed it to initially and confirmed I was still interested, so I sold it and bought the IOR. If I were to do it again now, I'd probably start with that PA scope you're looking at, instead and go from there.

 

[Renegade One]

A little background. I'm looking ...to buy a long range bolt-action centerfire rifle that I only plan to shoot at a range at this point (no hunting), so mobility isn't a factor. Most ranges near me top out at around 300 yards, but I would like to have the ability to go farther out in the future. Budget is around $1000.

I'm going to repeat a question I recently asking on a similar thread about buying a 1911 pistol: "What do you intend to do with it?"
However…you've already answered that question…which appears to be punching holes in paper. Nothing wrong with that.

However…if that's truly your immediate (and perhaps only) goal, why not do something "more fun" that will lead you into some friendly competitions at your local range…after you meet that great crowd of folks who normally congregate there?

Rifle shooting is best learned with open/iron sights. Let me show my ass right up front: Get an M1 Garand or an M1A (SA-only version of an M-14). They are cheap, easily available and chambered for cheap surplus ammo. None of that is unimportant.

M1As are especially suitable for "after market shit"…plastic/tactical stocks, optics or accessory rails, AIMPOINT sights…you get the idea. Now you can punch holes in paper and maybe wild pigs or Texas whitetails.

Just not sure some coolio bolt-action would meet your expanding needs/desires in the longer term. Just my $.02.

 

[Gatordev]

First and foremost, I'd recommend he takes a class to learn the particular weapon system he ends up with, but you can do exactly all of what you mentioned with a precision gun, as well. He could participate in tactical precision matches (with known and unknown distances, unconventional positions, ranging drills, figuring out wind, etc). Just learning how to shoot effectively from some position other than prone takes time. Trying to hit a piece of steel at 800 yards off of a baricade takes practice.

So far, I've taken two precision/tactical precision classes from an incredibly good and well-known instructor and I feel like I've only just scratched the surface. I say this as someone who is not a big fan of shooting for groups. Just spending time and going out and trying to read wind is something that can be done over a long period of time. There's plenty to keep you busy...but it does assume you have access to a distance range. Something I'm lacking at the moment.

 

[Ag1998]

On the Primary Arms scope. Someone above mentioned going cheap to begin with while learning. I had never purposely shot anything but deer or elk over 250 yds, so the long range deal is pretty new to me. As I get more knowledge, I will upgrade the glass. The primary arms does the job for me right now while learning. When I switch out I will just move the scope to a different rifle and treat it as a sunk cost.

 

[Hopeful Hoya]

That's the one thing I really didn't like about the lower end Leupold and Nikon scopes, they had simple duplex reticules with absolutely no distance or ranging markings. Even though the PA one has mil-dots (which Gatordev said he wasn't a fan of), it at least gives you some point of reference to judge distance against, and since the turrets are in mrads it should be very easy to make the adjustments without having to convert to MOAs. So I think the PA would be a good, and relatively cheap, way to learn how to properly range targets and make adjustments and see what I like, while I save up for a Nightforce, high-end Leupold, etc...

Renegade, a M1 is definitely on my list of future purchases (along with a 1911). At this point through, I'd rather stick with something like a 700 because I would like to eventually get out to very long distances (like 1000 yards) and want something modern and simple to start out with to limit the variables, so to speak, since I have essentially no experience with firearms. However, once I get a little more experience under my belt and a couple thousand rounds through whatever I end up buying, then I definitely want to pick up a M1 (maybe during the A-pool wait, God willing )

I tried looking for classes around me (in Pittsburgh for the summer), but all of the rifle ones I saw were pretty much geared towards carbine style rifles. There was a tactical bolt-action class, but it seemed more running-and-gunning rather than learning the basics of a bolt-action platform.

 

[Gatordev]

I tried looking for classes around me (in Pittsburgh for the summer), but all of the rifle ones I saw were pretty much geared towards carbine style rifles. There was a tactical bolt-action class, but it seemed more running-and-gunning rather than learning the basics of a bolt-action platform.

Obviously having the coin to play helps, but I'd head over to Sniper's Hide to look for courses. You do have to find the right course for what you are looking for, but don't dismiss the "tactical bolt-action" class right away. My first Magpul class (SPR...and yeah, I know it's pricey for a college student, but there are similar classes) was geared more towards the AR vs. bolt, however, it was not the standard ninja-magazine flip class that you see in their videos. We started doing the prone thing learning the fundamentals and by the third day were doing more tactical stuff, but that doesn't mean it's the same thing as a carbine class. It's more about shooting at unknown distances from unconventional positions, with a little stress induced for good measure (usually done through some sort of PT).

I took the Magpul PR1 class the next year (more what you're looking for) and it was pretty much the same thing, with a little more time spent on the theory/fundamentals. There were only two of us running auto-loaders and everyone else was running bolt actions, but there was still some tactical shooting on the last day, again, unusual positions and/or stress induced. You may not be running with your rifle, so much as running TO your rifle and then doing something. One of my favorites is having your rifle set up on a target at 100 yards/meters but your ammo is 25 yards away. There were 16 targets to hit on the paper and you had to run to get your ammo, but only one round a time. Plus there's a time limit. You really have to stick to the fundamentals and get your shot off, all while doing wind sprints. I never did finish all 16 rounds (both times I'd get 15 rounds off), but both times I've done it, I would come in 1st and then 2nd among the group because I'd take the extra second or two to get the shot. It's a really fun (and exhausting) challenge.

Anywho, there's probably some classes around you, so dig around and you may find some more than what you're seeing.

 

[Renegade One]

Renegade, a M1 is definitely on my list of future purchases (along with a 1911). At this point through, I'd rather stick with something like a 700 because I would like to eventually get out to very long distances (like 1000 yards) and want something modern and simple to start out with to limit the variables, so to speak, since I have essentially no experience with firearms. However, once I get a little more experience under my belt and a couple thousand rounds through whatever I end up buying, then I definitely want to pick up a M1 (maybe during the A-pool wait, God willing )

The amount of thought you've put into this decision speaks well for you. Do what seems best for you. Now you need to post pics of some paper.

 

[Hopeful Hoya]

Thanks guys, I'm really glad to hear that I'm on the right path. I kept searching for some classes in my area but I was really having trouble finding one (the tactical one I mentioned earlier was actually in 2013 ). I joined the Sniper's Hide forum and posted over there to see if anyone knew of some classes around Pittsburgh.

The last question I had was are firearms something that you can "try before you buy" (like test driving a car)? Or is it that unless you know someone who already owns the particular gun/scope, etc that you are looking at, it is not possible?

Gator, those Magpul classes look (and sound) insane. The price wouldn't be that bad except for the fact that they are in Washington state, and would require $1000 in airfare for me. Maybe it's time to start a rainy day fund...

 

[Renegade One]

The last question I had was are firearms something that you can "try before you buy" (like test driving a car)? Or is it that unless you know someone who already owns the particular gun/scope, etc that you are looking at, it is not possible?

"Try before you buy" is very common with pistols these days…geared towards the first-time weapon purchasers who really don't know s/he wants or what fits their hands. I expect some low-end long guns (AR-15s, lever-action carbines, .22LRs) might also be available depending on the range you find. Finding a range that would offer "rentals" of a bolt and optics like you seem to be interested in is outside of my experience, however.

Yes, I think most shooters at your local long-range shooting venue might offer you 3-5 rounds with their piece, once you take the time to chat them up and describe your interests, but don't overdo this and wear out your welcome. Just my thoughts. Good luck!

 

[Gatordev]

Gator, those Magpul classes look (and sound) insane. The price wouldn't be that bad except for the fact that they are in Washington state, and would require $1000 in airfare for me. Maybe it's time to start a rainy day fund...

Caylen does move around (I took both classes in San Diego when I was stationed there), but the schedule is slow to update. His PR1 is the most popular, so you see that the most and it moves around the country. I found that we covered about 95% of the material in the SPR class, and I got more out of it because there were fewer people in it. I'm glad I took it first because the PR1 class was a lot of review for me so I could focus on practicing the specific tasks (wind, ranging, etc). I can't say enough good things about his instruction. He really does a good job at teaching you at your level. If you're not getting a concept, he'll dumb it down, or if he knows he can relate it to what you know, he'll do that, as well. There were several times when he'd relate something to me in aviation terms (he's also a pilot) to make sure I was tracking whatever particular physics lesson he was teaching. The last day of the SPR class, he was also throwing a gratuitous number of "Sirs" at me. I was doing pretty well and he knew it was pissing me off to keep getting "Sir'ed," but it was a way to increase the stress. ("Hey, SIR, you're up next for this evolution. Whenever you're ready, SIR. We're all waiting.") Solid dude.

I don't hang out at SH much (well, really not at all unless I'm looking for a specific piece of info), but I know that Caylen occasionally will pop in there to answer a specific question about a class.

 

[A7Dave]

Here's a cool piece of gear. It is Leupold's entry line scope (they bought the Redfield name and added it to their product line as a lower price point):

http://www.redfield.com/_media/downloads/Battlezone_6-18x44mm.pdf

http://www.opticsplanet.com/redfield-battlezone-6-18x44mm-tac-moa-riflescope.html

There are so many reticles on the market these days it's tough to choose. I have never shot a mil-dot, but have wanted one. One thing it is used for is ranging. A laser range finder will take care of that, so a "MOA" type reticle takes care of the rest. I know the snipers used mil-dots, but I think others are equally if not more useful.

A book I would recommend is by former SEALs Brandon Webb and the late Glenn Dougherty:
http://www.amazon.com/21st-Century-...EKW_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1400481978&sr=1-3

As far as test driving a gun, I would buy the best Remington 700 you can afford and don't look back. It is the gold standard. Almost every other sniper rifle is a higher end clone of the 700.

Hoya, one last bit of advice is to look for a CMP affiliated gun club in your area. Often they will have club guns (AR15s or M1 Garands) that you can use. Look for a "Garand Match". You'll pay a small fee and they may have ammo for sale. The Garand Match isn't necessarily shot with a Garand, it is just an intro to the National Match Across the Course Match. You'll shoot open sights at 100 or 200 yards, standing, sitting and prone. Lots of fun and most guys are super happy to help a new guy. Here is CMP's club link:

http://www.thecmp.org/Clubs.htm

Needless to say, I'm Garand fan. I just spent the afternoon shooting my 50s era Garand. No one comes over to check out an AR-15 anymore. When I bring out the Garand, I always get lookie-loos who want to check out a piece of history!