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Promotion Rates as a Naval Aviator

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Compared to Fallon or the clubs overseas, or even a civilian pub/bar out in town
But we're not comparing the Club at Whidbey to other clubs. We're comparing the Club at Whidbey in 2001 to the Club in Whidbey today. Please try and keep up. ;)
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
But we're not comparing the Club at Whidbey to other clubs. We're comparing the Club at Whidbey in 2001 to the Club in Whidbey today. Please try and keep up. ;)

Yeah, I'm no help there since I haven't stepped foot in that club since '04.
 

Python

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Disagree. I don't know what your definition of rocking is, but as a means of comparison with today, it's orders of magnitude in difference. During my JO tour, especially coincident with a RAG graduation, the club was packed from 1600-2000 or later. I know, because I was there every Friday (and I don't ever remember seeing you there, Flash :D). Started to taper off around 2004.

Packed until 2000 does not meet the definition of rocking. It does not meet ATIS’ description earlier either. That is the crux of the conversation: past vs present. Your description of the not too distant past is incongruent with the “nostalgic” distant past that I’ve been trying to illustrate.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
TLDR - Anacortes killed the Club.
I'd wager that similar demographic shifts around the bases didn't help to keep the club going. Back in the day just about every base was far more isolated than they are today. Because of this isolation I'd be willing to guess that the bases used to be the local bright center of the universe and it paid to live close to the only bar, grocery store, school, and half-way decent restaurant in the area. This probably served to make the club the neighborhood bar.

Now people live farther away to be closer to good schools, restaurants, grocery stores, etc. At NOB 30-60min commutes seemed to be common for most folks, especially the crowd with kids. Why bother hanging around the club and then commuting home after having a few when you can commute home and have a few at the local? When I was a JO I lived 20min from NOB but my house was two blocks from several great bars and restaurants. Mrs. Pags worked closer to home. After a week of 0200 recoveries for NVD flights or 0600-1800+ FCFs having a beer with the Mrs at one of our local bars was far more enticing than drinking a miller lite in a musty club with the same knuckleheads I saw all week.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Packed until 2000 does not meet the definition of rocking. It does not meet ATIS’ description earlier either. That is the crux of the conversation: past vs present. Your description of the not too distant past is incongruent with the “nostalgic” distant past that I’ve been trying to illustrate.
You and I are talking about two different things now. I grant you that things were very different 40 years ago. We're now exploring what has changed since 2000.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Setting aside the lines of civilian chicks at the door, I think we can also blame the way the clubs are managed. I understand that no one wants to lose money, but I think the determination to make the clubs a profit making endeavor has contributed to their decline.

Let’s use Whidbey as an example of club management gone wrong. When I first got there in 2010, the club still had a Friday scene which was halfway decent due to strong RAG and fleet CO support. As a Prowler CAT 1, I was encouraged to go to the club every Friday. When I got to my fleet squadron, JOPA had lunch at the club several times a week and we all headed over on Friday afternoons for an hour or two.

Flash forward to 2013ish: the club stopped serving lunch, which cut down on club exposure for the new guys. That lack of exposure, coupled with shorter hours on Fridays, killed JOPAs desire to frequent the club.

It’s also difficult to push club attendance when it’s impossible to get a safe ride home from Oak Harbor to Anacortes that doesn’t involve a DD (no Uber, no willing cab companies, etc.). It just became easier to drive home and then walk to the bars in Anacortes (hence the O Club north atmosphere at places like Union Tavern). It’s telling that the most attended events at the Whidbey Club are the ones where there are shuttles provided.

I’m not privy to the base MWR meetings, but my perspective from the cheap seats was that club profit was more important than club accessibility, hence the push towards combined clubs. This may be wishful thinking, but why can’t we accept that clubs will lose money, and just fund them anyway so we can maintain the culture?

Also, the combined club concept needs to be killed with fire.
Whoever killed the Whidbey O-Club lunch should be smacked in the face. That place beat the heck out of the CPO club and that little greasy spoon in the bowling alley. Do they NOT like making money or something?

That’s what puzzled me about MWR-run clubs in general. It’s like they think they have a captive audience and can just do whatever they want, without literally and figuratively catering to their customers. No non-subsidized business can get away with that and stay in business, yet I thought their job was to fund MWR through drink and food sales.

There’s an incentive structure that club management was operating under in my JO era that I obviously am missing part of. Were they known to be operating at a loss?
 
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Pags

N/A
pilot
I'd wager that similar demographic shifts around the bases didn't help to keep the club going. Back in the day just about every base was far more isolated than they are today. Because of this isolation I'd be willing to guess that the bases used to be the local bright center of the universe and it paid to live close to the only bar, grocery store, school, and half-way decent restaurant in the area. This probably served to make the club the neighborhood bar.

Now people live farther away to be closer to good schools, restaurants, grocery stores, etc. At NOB 30-60min commutes seemed to be common for most folks, especially the crowd with kids. Why bother hanging around the club and then commuting home after having a few when you can commute home and have a few at the local? When I was a JO I lived 20min from NOB but my house was two blocks from several great bars and restaurants. Mrs. Pags worked closer to home. After a week of 0200 recoveries for NVD flights or 0600-1800+ FCFs having a beer with the Mrs at one of our local bars was far more enticing than drinking a miller lite in a musty club with the same knuckleheads I saw all week.
Follow up to my self...overseas demographics make base amenities in overseas facilities more enticing as well. In Japan I lived in base housing and could walk to the ship, NEX, commissary, and club. Although base housing was also effectively in downtown Sasebo the fact that the base had the nearest western amenities like a Chilis and Club that served an American Brunch kept the on-base amenities more relevant. My family probably used on base dining amenities at least twice a day. When the base doesn't have to compete with the local economy it helps to keep the facilities relevant.
 

AIRMMCPORET

Plan “A” Retired
The bad thing about our clubs is that MWR controls them, and civilians run them. Plus they have to turn a profit they are not subsidized, membership is the key to profitability, plus patronizing them frequently.

The O club at Whidbey is huge, costs lots to heat and staff unfortunately, and membership wasn’t that great from what I could see, plus what I heard from wardroom.

The Chiefs club there fortunately has good membership, we have the all hands side that even civilians can use. It who knows how long that’s even gonna last, rumors have it that MWR would like to combine all clubs into it as all hands club.

Things definitely have changed since I joined in 1987?, I stood gate guard at Oceana in 1989, and boy did I give out tons of passes to chicks for the O/E club on the weekends.?
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
The bad thing about our clubs is that MWR controls them, and civilians run them. Plus they have to turn a profit they are not subsidized, membership is the key to profitability, plus patronizing them frequently.

The O club at Whidbey is huge, costs lots to heat and staff unfortunately, and membership wasn’t that great from what I could see, plus what I heard from wardroom.

The Chiefs club there fortunately has good membership, we have the all hands side that even civilians can use. It who knows how long that’s even gonna last, rumors have it that MWR would like to combine all clubs into it as all hands club.

Things definitely have changed since I joined in 1987?, I stood gate guard at Oceana in 1989, and boy did I give out tons of passes to chicks for the O/E club on the weekends.?
The CPO club in Whidbey is slowly dying as well. Restaurant portion has cut way back.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
You and I are talking about two different things now. I grant you that things were very different 40 years ago. We're now exploring what has changed since 2000.
Yep, the “many moons ago” stuff is fun for the memories (anyone ever do the O’Club at Cubi Point?) but those times have no relationship to now. The services have changed as a whole since 2000/2001 and are very different animals.
 

Python

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
You and I are talking about two different things now. I grant you that things were very different 40 years ago. We're now exploring what has changed since 2000.

Fair enough. Like I said from the beginning, when you said you didn’t know what JOs waxed nostalgic about, now you do. We were talking about pre2000. The stuff we heard about from senior ROTC/Academy instructors, O-6+s, retired sim instructors, ATIS, etc.

And my other point stands: your description of a packed club until 8pm wouldn’t count as rocking, and the others above who attended NASWI’s club attest to that in their above posts.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Fair enough. Like I said from the beginning, when you said you didn’t know what JOs waxed nostalgic about, now you do. We were talking about pre2000. The stuff we heard about from senior ROTC/Academy instructors, O-6+s, retired sim instructors, ATIS, etc.

And my other point stands: your description of a packed club until 8pm wouldn’t count as rocking, and the others above who attended NASWI’s club attest to that in their above posts.
The wars changed the USN a lot. The fleet I experienced as a MIDN in the late 90s was a lot different from the fleet I served in as an officer in the mid to late 2000s (naughts? The naughtiest?).

In the summer of 2000 I was onboard LPD-4 for a med cruise. Over the course of four weeks I think I spent six days at sea. The rest of the time was in port in Mallaga, Cannes, and Civatavechia. There was no liberty expiration time other than sea and anchor and there were no questions asked if someone had to be carried the quarterdeck.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
The wars changed the USN a lot. The fleet I experienced as a MIDN in the late 90s was a lot different from the fleet I served in as an officer in the mid to late 2000s (naughts? The naughtiest?).

In the summer of 2000 I was onboard LPD-4 for a med cruise. Over the course of four weeks I think I spent six days at sea. The rest of the time was in port in Mallaga, Cannes, and Civatavechia. There was no liberty expiration time other than sea and anchor and there were no questions asked if someone had to be carried the quarterdeck.
LPD-4...the Austin, I’m pretty sure I got seasick on the Austin.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
LPD-4...the Austin, I’m pretty sure I got seasick on the Austin.
I wasn't at sea long enough to get sick. And who does a med cruise anymore? At the time that's what the fleet did: Translant, show the flag around the med, go through the ditch and hit the gulf for 32days to get the boys 3mo of tax free time, bump around the med a bit more, translant, and then home. Everyone's biggest worry was if their paycheck would cover all the time in port.
 
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