Primary Experience - Gouge 2024

[Griz882]

For navy, we could pick
Helo
Multi
Jets
E6
V22
E2s

E6, V22 and E2 were considered the “unicorns”.
You needed at least a 50NSS to put down jets or E2s. If you put down jets, you were automatically put in for E2s (even if you didn’t put it down) as well

Thanks…so many options these days.

 

[Griz882]

I thought V-22 guys skipped the T-6 and went right to this on primary…

 

[robav8r]

Slight thread jack and honest question: have always heard the E-2 is by far the most difficult to fly off the boat, requiring the best grades in flight school. True?

 

[hdr777]

Slight thread jack and honest question: have always heard the E-2 is by far the most difficult to fly off the boat, requiring the best grades in flight school. True?

You need tailhook grades but definitely don't need to be the best

 

[Roger_Waveoff]

While in sims, make sure you are learning the NATOPS Brief in anticipation of your first flight. This is a 10-page script that must be memorized verbatim and delivered before every flight. I’m not going to lie, this thing is a bitch. I promise you, you’re going to do this script so many times, that it's going to feel like second nature.

If you have the resources, get flight hours before flight school. Your familiarity with a plane will be noted and reflected in early flights when good grades are amplified exponentially.

Disappointed to see the flight school approach to the NATOPS brief hasn't changed since I was a T-6 SNA about 6 years ago. I find it necessary to say, at least from the perspective of a V-22 pilot on his super JO tour, if you start rattling off some long, canned NATOPS brief you memorized as a 2P, your crew chiefs' eyes will glaze over within approximately 30 seconds. The NATOPS brief should be your opportunity as the aircraft commander to highlight what's particularly different, difficult, or dangerous about TODAY and what you expect out of your crew to mitigate it. "Control changes will be a 3-way positive change...emphasis on the word 'controls'..." - how about "Control changes will be per SOP"?

Also disappointed to see people who had the $$$ to do civilian flying at some point prior to flight school still have a leg up on people due to higher weighting of events earlier in the Primary syllabus. When I was completing (late 2018), senior IPs were saying the next syllabus revision was supposed to fix that with the highest weighting going to checkrides.

Congrats on completing!

 

[Odominable]

Disappointed to see the flight school approach to the NATOPS brief hasn't changed since I was a T-6 SNA about 6 years ago. I find it necessary to say, at least from the perspective of a V-22 pilot on his super JO tour, if you start rattling off some long, canned NATOPS brief you memorized as a 2P, your crew chiefs' eyes will glaze over within approximately 30 seconds. The NATOPS brief should be your opportunity as the aircraft commander to highlight what's particularly different, difficult, or dangerous about TODAY and what you expect out of your crew to mitigate it. "Control changes will be a 3-way positive change...emphasis on the word 'controls'..." - how about "Control changes will be per SOP"?

Also disappointed to see people who had the $$$ to do civilian flying at some point prior to flight school still have a leg up on people due to higher weighting of events earlier in the Primary syllabus. When I was completing (late 2018), senior IPs were saying the next syllabus revision was supposed to fix that with the highest weighting going to checkrides.

Congrats on completing!

Can’t agree enough, that’s a very dumb thing to train to. Familiarity is one thing, verbatim is silly. That’s time that could have been spent chair flying or any number of more productive study techniques. Hand up I was guilty of the controls thing (and others) in the fleet too. Do two 1000+ hour dudes really need to tell each other about a three way change of controls??

 

[Mouselovr]

Times never change. There were conversations about changing the NATOPS brief to "functional knowledge" as opposed to verbatim during my primary exp. Once contacts complete, most IPs will do a "standard NATOPS brief" that follows the "Control changes will be per SOP".

With respect to prior flight hours, charlie students with prior hours had leg ups. The avenger syllabus was even more egregious due to its competition to solo as fast as possible and punishing your NSS with every "extra" flight required.
Fortunately, its being completely sundowned. The new syllabus will take elements from it but charlie will serve as the base.

 

[MIDNJAC]

The avenger syllabus was even more egregious due to its competition to solo as fast as possible and punishing your NSS with every "extra" flight required.
Fortunately, its being completely sundowned.

So you’re telling me that the experiment of stuffing 100 lbs into a 10 lb sock that used to be a 50 lb sock, wasn’t a success?

 

[Gatordev]

Do two 1000+ hour dudes really need to tell each other about a three way change of controls??

The flip side of it is: remember, it's Primary. No, two 1000+ hour guys don't need to brief control changes, but these aren't 1000+ hour students.

Whether it was in the RAG or in Primary, I would use the brief as a tool, either flight-related just like you both are saying, or to teach a briefing item for that day. But you still have to start at a point to make sure the student is at least familiar with the script before you can deviate from it (which we all seem to agree, should be the ultimate goal).

 

[JTS11]

Disappointed to see the flight school approach to the NATOPS brief hasn't changed since I was a T-6 SNA about 6 years ago. I find it necessary to say, at least from the perspective of a V-22 pilot on his super JO tour, if you start rattling off some long, canned NATOPS brief you memorized as a 2P, your crew chiefs' eyes will glaze over within approximately 30 seconds. The NATOPS brief should be your opportunity as the aircraft commander to highlight what's particularly different, difficult, or dangerous about TODAY and what you expect out of your crew to mitigate it. "Control changes will be a 3-way positive change...emphasis on the word 'controls'..." - how about "Control changes will be per SOP"?...

These are great points. Although, I can see the need for the FNG at his/her new squadron to go through the EP section of the brief to give warm and fuzzies that he/she is on the level (just to ensure they truly understand the SOP's)

But yeah, from a spectrum of (A) a canned, rote, boring NATOPS ready room/crew brief vs (B) an everyone put your hands in the middle and break it down with a "1...2...3...NATOPS!" 😄 , your approach is way more better.

Also, from my dated experience, rote NATOPS briefs get infected by squadron-isms that get mindlessly repeated with little basis in fact or reality. Just my opinion obviously.

 

[johnpauljones1776]

Recent selector passing down the gouge.

Due to the building of Delta, I’ll keep current syllabus points more general. I will also focus on some of the “lesser known” administrative pitfalls a student can fall into.

Pre-Class up
This is my recommended order of learning before classing up. If you do nothing else, learn your EPs before day 1 of ground school. Everything else is supplemental.
1. EPs (emergency procedures)/ Aircraft Limits
2. NWCs (Notes, Warnings and Cautions)
3. Hollywood Script
4. Course Rules
5. NATOPS brief

I’ve attached a quizlet of the most recent EPs as well as every NWC. They recently updated the limits page, so I won’t post outdated gouge. The limits are 1 page long and can be found in the NATOPS. Hollywood script and course rules are pubs. The NATOPS brief is in the squadron’s safety office.

You’ll be told NWCs must be “workable” knowledge. This means different things to different IPs (Instructor Pilot). What I recommend is being able to list all EP’s NWCs anecdotally NOT verbatim from memory. You should be able to vomit them on your IP without prompts.
https://quizlet.com/560359788/t-6b-eps-with-nwc-flash-cards/

Ground School
Get the gouge. If you haven’t already, keep perfecting your EPs, NWC, and Limits. Ground school is nothing to worry about and is nothing like NIFE.

Onwing
Your onwing is an assigned instructor primarily tasked with guiding you through contacts. An off-wing is any IP who is not your onwing. Your onwing partner is another student also assigned to that same instructor. You should fly most of your contact flights on-wing. Luck dictates who this on-wing is, how generous of a grader they are, their chill-ness, and how much they care. You as the student can request a new onwing if things aren’t working out. I’d also highly recommend requesting a new onwing if he/she is about to leave the squadron or is about to take extended leave. You will get shafted in these situations as there’s no one to vouch for you in scheduling.

I was lucky. I had a good owning and an even better owning partner.

Contacts
Contacts technically begins the day you start ground school and ends when you complete your solo. This will be anywhere from 3 - 6 + months. Contacts is the longest phase of flight school and the hardest IMO. You’re learning to learn while learning. Your enjoyment and success in contacts will be 100% contingent on factors out of your control such as your onwing, how much you get put on duty, the weather, and if maintenance decides you are the lowest priority flight for a week straight. Show up with a good attitude and preparation and the rest will sort itself out.

While in sims, make sure you are learning the NATOPS Brief in anticipation of your first flight. This is a 10-page script that must be memorized verbatim and delivered before every flight. I’m not going to lie, this thing is a bitch. I promise you, you’re going to do this script so many times, that it's going to feel like second nature.
The contacts check-ride is your final exam testing if you’re ready to solo. The solo is one of the greatest confidence boosters as a student pilot.

Enjoy. You earned it.

Instruments
My favorite phase of Primary. It lasts around 2 months. Ground school is rough even if you have a good instructor. It’s like learning a new language.
Out-and-ins (back to back flights) are an absolute blast. This is an amazing time to ask IPs questions about their communities and prior lifestyles over great food. If you’re a Corpus Stud, plan at least one trip to College Station to get tacos. Your IP will like you.

You should also get the opportunity to go cross-country. Typically, your onwing will take you. And no, you don’t typically get to choose where you go.

Nav
Primary Nav is nothing like NIFE Nav. This is the most cake exam/ flights of primary. Have fun.

Forms
The brief for forms is longer than the NATOPS brief. You might go to forms after contacts. You might go to instruments. Start learning the forms brief in contacts in case they send you direct forms.
Forms is the shortest phase lasting 1-2 weeks depending on weather. The ~3 days of flying currently accounts for ~40% of your final NSS in this ~7-month program so pray you get good instructors.

Air-sickness
Air sickness is unfortunately common on the first ride in the T6. Prolonged air sickness is not. Most people will adjust to the plane or require some extra training/meds/air sickness boards/time in the spin chair. The squadrons will do everything in their power until all resources are exhausted. At that point, air sickness attrition will occur. While rare, this does happen to a handful of people a year. On a related note, if you push in the "VOX" button, the IP won't have to hear you puke.

Human factors boards (HFBs)
Life happens while in flight school. An HFB will be scheduled automatically after significant medical issues, life events, frequent IMSAFEs, or a checkride failure/ multiple failures. These are nothing like the punitive “boards” people faced in NIFE. They are meeting with the chain of command, so they can check in on you and act as required. As a student, you can request an HFB or one might get scheduled for you. You’ll be temporarily taken off the schedule until a consensus is made.

Serious experiences with IPs/ sim instructors
Most instructors are fantastic and want to see you succeed, but it only takes one bad apple to spoil the barrel. The chain of command wants to hear about issues so they can address it. If something serious comes up, do not allow the power dynamics/not wanting to “shake the boat” inhibit reaching out to appropriate resources. Every squadron should have a CMEO/ SAPR representative (discrimination, harassment, and sexual harassment) who wants to help. For “lesser issues” that don’t warrant formal military reporting, telling an IP you trust is the go-to. Squadron action can be taken such as barring students and instructors from being scheduled with each other. This form of documentation remains purely anonymous.

PRT
When I went through, if you failed, it was an auto-attrite. No questions asked. You’re done. Two people I knew were booted for it. This is the stupidest and most avoidable way to get attrited.

Attrition/ DOR/ Redes
DOR’ing out of flight school is far more common than failure attrition. But I did see both play out.

Primary is incredibly challenging. Almost everyone I knew considered quitting or was deeply unhappy at some point.
My only 2 cents is to surround yourself with a support system of other students. The gouge you'll learn off each other will guide you, and they'll serve as emotional backboards. From what I observed, many of those who failure attrited were typically solo studiers. Excluding medical attrition, no DOR/attrite was offered to leave service. Redes was required. This could change with time or an individual chain of command. The POCR board (redes board) does not discriminate between DORs or attrites. Everyone who left aviation ended up in a good place.

NSS/Grades
“Luck is when preparation meets opportunity”

I can tell countless stories of students who busted their tails and got what they wanted. If you want aircraft “XYZ”, you can do it too.

Just know, for every success story, there’s someone who worked just as hard but it didn’t line up. My onwing partner worked harder than anyone I saw in all of Primary. Their NSS was great. They selected in a helo week. The following week, a guy with a min NSS picked up jets.

If you have the resources, get flight hours before flight school. Your familiarity with a plane will be noted and reflected in early flights when good grades are amplified exponentially.

My selection
I did the best I could with the opportunities I had. Parts of my training syllabus were not standard, but as a result, I picked up a wide range of fantastic mentors. I had a unicorn as my #1 and #2 helos. I got the good ole WOP WOP, and I'm very excited. 🚁

With respect to location, I don't think you can go wrong with Corpus v Whiting field. I got to see another part of the US and visit some fun cities in Texas. I would not change my decision to be Primary Texas-trained.

….



Mouse

How many hours did you get in primary? Were they awarding better NSS scores to those who needed less hours?

 

[Mouselovr]

Mid 60s in terms of hours. That was average in Primary.
And yes. The more events you skip, the better the NSS.
There were two types of skipable events:
Events where >90% of student will skip bc they made minimum grades
Events where <10% of student will skip bc they are doing significantly above average.

 

[sevenhelmet]

The flip side of it is: remember, it's Primary. No, two 1000+ hour guys don't need to brief control changes, but these aren't 1000+ hour students.

Whether it was in the RAG or in Primary, I would use the brief as a tool, either flight-related just like you both are saying, or to teach a briefing item for that day. But you still have to start at a point to make sure the student is at least familiar with the script before you can deviate from it (which we all seem to agree, should be the ultimate goal).

Came here to say this. You have to know the NATOPS brief by rote before it becomes standard.

Not surprised that prior flight experience continues to break out in a reduced primary syllabus.

 

[Skywalker]

Slight thread jack and honest question: have always heard the E-2 is by far the most difficult to fly off the boat, requiring the best grades in flight school. True?

The official bar to clear for all tailhook is 50 NSS; the unofficial or at least anecdotal bar for strike is 60. The common denominators among E-2 SNAs is mid-to-high 50s and had jets somewhere on the dream sheet.

 

[kookylukey]

12/10 Gouge as usual. I would just say at least from a Whiting perspective that besides the EP of the day for the brief, I was never really asked NWCs. Especially never asked to list them. But as Mouse said it definitely depends on the IP (the true theme of primary).
Also for the people asking how many hours we came out of primary with, I finished with 67. Which after being stashed doing logbooks before classing up for South Field, that seemed to be about the average for everyone.