"Pilots Pull Rank, Declare Emergency At JFK (With Audio)"

[A4sForever]

1. I believe we do all still have comfort levels, no matter what .... etc, etc says.
2. ... doing a circle to land to the off duty runway is a bad idea in any class B airspace... However, I don't think doing so on a VMC day is going to cause the sun to stop rising, but flaming out before you get back around to the runway will (at least for everyone onboard).

1. Well ... we just look at it from a slightly differing perspective. Comfort level?? My first 'safe-for-solo' CAPT trip over to Tokyo involved my extremely 'green' (not eco-friendly green) CoPilot giving me the airplane on approach 'cause of bad, bad winds in/out of limits going into NRT.

Good headwork on his part?? You bet. Comfort level on his part?? I imagine his went up exponentially. But WHAT ABOUT MY COMFORT LEVEL -- ??? I thought: fuck me. I really didn't want to get 'broken in' like this ... I wanted to cry like a little girl and scream: STO-P-P-P-P-P-P-PPP THE MADNESS !!!

But I couldn't -- I had to take over & pretend like 'no biggie': I do this every day; doesn't EVERYONE??? We all knew the score and the answer was there was only ONE guy in the cockpit that was going to get 'it done'. So down we went riding in the straps and I could barely keep it on the runway during rollout. There was no one else there to 'do it' ... so I get back to my view: you either do it, or you don't.

'Comfort levels' are fine in theory ... but when you sign for the aircraft -- responsibility and accountability come first. Certainly before 'comfort' ...

'Comfort', for the record, is for the debrief @ the bar ...

2. If we're on the right track overall in this discussion -- the CAPT should have never got to a fuel remaining place in his life where a go-around/circle to 31's became an immediate, emergency requirement. Flaming out is obviously not an option, as they don't provide us w/ parachutes, plus it would disturb the pax if we walked down the aisle wearing them.

Like everything else in a 'perfect aviation world' -- he should have anticipated -- not reacted, assuming that was the case. Of course, if he's outta' ideas and outta' fuel, then he's got to do what he's gotta' do -- or what he did ... (??).

He just has to answer for it later ...

Good discussion.

 

[Spoonman]

So you have perfect knowledge? You have heard ALL the comms between the AA aircraft and ATC? You happen to know that there were no abnormalities or operational issues with the aircraft? As Ducky said, lay it on the table.

Do I have perfect knowledge, no. Do I fly into JFK twice a week on a 767ER...yes I do and do I have a pretty good idea of the protocol for declaring min fuel, emergency fuel, a medical emergency...yes I think I'm qual'd to make some speculative calls on this. Each and every time I have EVER heard an a/c go around for crosswinds out of limits they have taken a vector to the downwind and set up for the approach. The time required is about 7 mins and I your flying around with less than 7 mins of fuel remaining at your destination maybe the correct call would have been to declare min fuel with approach to at least alert someone of a potential problem.

The tower controller had no clue ahead of time that an aircraft in extremis was inbound, by the way the controller is a great guy and does a hellofa great job day in and day out.

Perfect knowledge, who the heck does? More knowledge than average...I think so.

 

[Spoonman]

Who the Fu*K are you, and what the hell do you know about declaring emergencies? Please back that post up with some experience that you are basing your judgement on.

well Ducky, great command of the English language. Who the f##k am I? Well for starters I am a JFK based 767ER pilot who flys out of JFK twice a week, 52 weeks a year. So maybe YOU should shut the F##K up yourself. And, have a nice day.

 

[A4sForever]

Do I have perfect knowledge, no. Do I fly into JFK twice a week on a 767ER...yes....

This is why it's a 'good thing' to put something more meaningful into your bio-page other than 'not much to tell' or 'AV8TOR' -- at least until you've established some 'street cred' or put up more than a handful of posts on the website.

We don't need nor require your name, rank, & serial number ... but a little more 'info' in addition to what you've presently got on your profile page might save you (and others) some heartburn.

This place is wide open w/ a big welcome aboard mat for guys who 'know the score' ... but you know how it goes when the opposite kine' guy shows up.

Sooooooooooo .... ALOHA and welcome aboard.

 

[FrankTheTank]

I am a JFK based 767ER pilot who flys out of JFK twice a week, 52 weeks a year.

You work to hard... Too busy flying the line to fill in MORE of a profile? Maybe you should evaluate your bidding strategy?


As a side, haven't gotten any 'New' rumor. My AA buds are hush, hush; hadn't heard anything...

 

[Ducky]

well Ducky, great command of the English language. Who the f##k am I? Well for starters I am a JFK based 767ER pilot who flys out of JFK twice a week, 52 weeks a year. So maybe YOU should shut the F##K up yourself. And, have a nice day.

Welcome aboard!

 

[wink]

Do I have perfect knowledge, no. Do I fly into JFK twice a week on a 767ER...yes I do and do I have a pretty good idea of the protocol for declaring min fuel, emergency fuel, a medical emergency...yes I think I'm qual'd to make some speculative calls on this. Each and every time I have EVER heard an a/c go around for crosswinds out of limits they have taken a vector to the downwind and set up for the approach. The time required is about 7 mins and I your flying around with less than 7 mins of fuel remaining at your destination maybe the correct call would have been to declare min fuel with approach to at least alert someone of a potential problem.

The tower controller had no clue ahead of time that an aircraft in extremis was inbound, by the way the controller is a great guy and does a hellofa great job day in and day out.

Perfect knowledge, who the heck does? More knowledge than average...I think so.

Nice to know you have flown over Canarsie a time or two. But that isn't the knowledge I speak of. The Capt in question may have SOUNDED like a ass, but unless he is your brother in law or you know how much gas he had, or whether he did inform Approach of an issue and it wasn't passed on to Tower (like that has never happened) then I don't think you have enough knowledge to say he IS an asshole. I will take one issue with your informed opinion. My experience leads me to question your 7 minute go around to touch down on an inactive crossing runway at JFK. I would never expect 7 minutes in those circumstances. The controllers direction to "fly runway heading", I'll get back to you is a huge red flag. That is not the way 7 minute go arounds start.

 

[Spoonman]

7 mins for a trip around the downwind to final is not a real outlandish timeframe. Case in point: 180 kts with the slats extended will give you a pretty good trip around the pattern and dump you out at the marker with about 5 miles of final. Slow to around 140ish (weight/flap setting will determine exact speed plus any wind additive) and it is quite realistic to "zip" around the pattern in 7 minutes. Visual approaches in use so tower isn't likely to send you out to the IAF.

Besides all of that however, had this been an international arrival, (barring any holding or extreme wx deviations which none of us really know about, which is really why we are having the debate anyway because we don't have all of the pieces of the puzzle), he would have had to had reserve fuel onboard.

For a domestic flight, with no alternate required, again unless holding/weather were factors, I do not know of a dispatcher who would ever fuel plan a flight that tight. And of course Captain's authority trumps the dispatcher so if the Capt wanted more fuel on the plane he'd have gotten it.

Generally speaking, when declaring an emergency, rather than getting into a verbal confrontation with tower, a simple "we are declaring an emergency for low fuel" would have had probably had a better effect all around. Instead tower is clueless about what the real problem is and the pilot is yelling at him, tower gets pi##ed off and a real CRM nightmare ensues.

True also that there probably was not a huge safety issue with circling left slightly to line up for 31R since he was flying to 22L initially and the arrivals dump out NE of the airport at a higher altitude.

The tone of the Captain and his omission of any amplifying info would lead me to think it was more about not wanting to go around rather than being unable to go around. In the Captain's defense, there is no requirement to even declare an emergency in order to excercise emergency authority, so maybe he did infact have his hands full of some unknown emergency. I 'm sure the report he wrote following the incident explains it more elequently than I can.

 

[wink]

7 mins for a trip around the downwind to final is not a real outlandish timeframe. Case in point: 180 kts with the slats extended will give you a pretty good trip around the pattern and dump you out at the marker with about 5 miles of final. Slow to around 140ish (weight/flap setting will determine exact speed plus any wind additive) and it is quite realistic to "zip" around the pattern in 7 minutes. Visual approaches in use so tower isn't likely to send you out to the IAF.

I can't say I would have done it the way this Capt did. But I am not about to make bold definitive claims about his airmanship or character until I really know what he was dealing with in the cockpit.

Now, to beat this horse one more time before he dies, Your 7 minutes go around to landing does not account for the runway heading for 6 minutes and the extended time to get back around after flying wrong way for those minutes while the controller does who knows what. On a perfect day, with perfect vectors, in places not nearly as crowed as JFK, I have gone around for a foul deck to the same runway and it took maybe 7 minutes.

 

[Catmando]

... I am a JFK based 767ER pilot who flys out of JFK twice a week, 52 weeks a year. So maybe YOU should shut the F##K up yourself...

52 weeks a year? Wow! Do you sell back your vacations?

Maybe you should cut back some. Take a few weeks vacation. You sound a little overwrought.

And those more junior... they might appreciate it too.

 

[A4sForever]

52 weeks a year? Wow! Do you sell back your vacations? ....

Yeah ... in my normal, spring-loaded 'spirit' of comity and good feelings, I didn't pick up on this like some of you more 'cynical' boys ...

ANYONE who flies 52 weeks a year for an airline or a non-sked is a chump. Or a fool. Or a serial exaggerator. Or a liar ...

 

[Birdog8585]

52 weeks a year? Wow! Do you sell back your vacations?

Maybe you should cut back some. Take a few weeks vacation. You sound a little overwrought.

And those more junior... they might appreciate it too.

Yeah ... in my normal, spring-loaded 'spirit' of comity and good feelings, I didn't pick up on this like some of you more 'cynical' boys ...

ANYONE who flies 52 weeks a year for an airline or a non-sked is a chump. Or a fool. Or a serial exaggerator. Or a liar ...

And they're off!!
it gets good right here...

 

[A4sForever]

And they're off!!
it gets good right here...

Naaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh .... no 'challenge'; just an editorial comment.

 

[careerO-3]

This is a really great thread. I am no airline pilot so I will refrain from quarterbacking this one. However, I do think it is reasonable to assume fuel was some sort of issue here. I just want to remind the young bucks out there that shitty fuel planning can bite you in the ass, quick. I've had more than one instance where murphy's law has come into play and before I knew it, I was questioning which field I was going to have to divert to. One time in particular, I was very close to having to make an emergency landing in Egypt. On that day, I had a very strong feeling that I was about to be famous for all the wrong reasons. Remember, nuggets, 100+ knot headwinds and controller delays will pop up when they are the last thing you need. Always have solid mission planning and a backup plan ready to go.

 

[JustAGuy]

The tone of the Captain and his omission of any amplifying info would lead me to think it was more about not wanting to go around rather than being unable to go around.

One thing to throw out from experience as well as to ask the others with lots of commercial experience is that everytime I have had to declare an emergency, the controller has thrown in the, "When able state the nature of your emergency."

This will do a couple of things, let people know if you are coming in for the dreaded seven engine approach in a B-52, or that your A-7's only engine is malfunctioning. It also let's the controller pass on to the field what is happening and even though sending emergency vehicles is standard, maybe you had a fire that injured 30 people. Two ambulances ain't gonna help much.

While the e-word can be used to give you options, a good aviator also understands he is not flying in their own little bubble after that word has been thrown out there.

I won't comment on the situation at hand because I wasn't there only to say that the ultimate goal, of not breaking jets or killing people, was accomplished.