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KSUFLY

Active Member
pilot
Mefesto said:
If you look at statistics, twin engine a/c are inhenrently more dangerous than singles. Main reason is the complexity of an engine failure... especially in light twins. A loss of one engine, in a light twin, while only 50% of the power, can be as much as 80% of the performance. There is a level of knowledge that had to be THOROUGHLY understood aerodynamically to safely recover a twin from an engine out situation, most critically at take off. The biggest thing are two speeds call blue line and red line. Blue line is your single engine best rate of climb speed. If you loose an engine, this is the speed you're flying... and there's a chance it may not be enough to keep you airbone. This is also assuming you're cleaned up, secured the prop, and are flying with zero sideslip to minimize aerodynamic drag. There's more to it than that, but thats the jist. Red line is you're single engine min control speed, or Vmc. There's no life below this speed. Single engine, if you get below Vmc there is not enough rudder/aileron to over come the yaw from the assymetric thrust, and you WILL lose control of the a/c. Basically as you approach redline, with full rudder and aileron in, the nose will just keep pulling, then most a/c will snap roll over, and you depart. The only way to recover is close the throttle, get the nose down, get above blue line, and recover. If you don't have a lot of altitude, you won't.

All this said, there are a lot more factors that go into it, under standing critical engine, what makes up a critical engine, 4 factors that effect Vmc... suffice to say I had students that, while they could fly single engine, they couldn't explain it, and I would never put them up for a check ride. My MEI check ride... the oral exam was about 4 hours, the flight only a .9 because the examiner wanted to know that I knew exactly what I was teaching.

So why is the hornet c/l thrust restricted? (as well as aircraft like the Cessna 337)... because the thrust from both engines is pretty much along centerline of the a/c. A loss of an engine, while producing a little yaw, it's not much. I don't think you can Vmc roll a Hornet... a Tomcat could and would.

Ok, so there's my dusting off of some really old Multi-Engine instructor knowledge... everyone clear?


Nice explanation. I think my MEI brief was about 4 hours as well with a very short flight.

Something else to mention is that sometimes blue line give you your smallest sink rate instead of your greatest climb rate in light twins. Do you know, doesn't blue line decrease and red line increase when weight decreases?
 

Carno

Insane
Vyse does change. Like you said, not much, but it does change.

Piper Seminole Vyse is 88 KIAS, but flying in Florida in our configuration we would actually get more altitude at 85 KIAS.
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Mefesto said:
Ok, so there's my dusting off of some really old Multi-Engine instructor knowledge... everyone clear?

A very nice explanation, Mefesto.

A long time ago, as a new F-14 pilot, I marched into the local FSDO to have the "multi-engine – centerline thrust only" restriction removed from my commercial "ticket". But I was denied.

At the time, the FAA considered the F-14 like the F-4 – centerline thrust only. Undeterred, I then spent considerable time documenting the distance between engines, determining potential asymmetric thrust and moment arms, listing engine-failure procedures of the time, and compiled a number of Vmc graphs for the aircraft… not to mention some recent accidents due to TF-30 engine failure.

Returning to the FSDO with my package of data a week or so later, the "centerline thrust only" restriction was quickly removed. :D
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Mefesto said:
I don't think you can Vmc roll a Hornet... a Tomcat could and would.

Could and would indeed!

And after the Tomcat did that, altitude permitting, it would sometimes "couple-up" and then enter the dreaded and notorious, flat spin. (BTW, that info certainly got the FAA inpectors' attention, and rightly so!)
 

Tom

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
A while ago a C-5 crashed after an engine failure. If memory serves me correctly, the crew was inexperienced, had new instrumentation in the aircraft and got too slow. Ah the wonders of Vmc.
 

Carno

Insane
Plus someone put in like 40 degrees of flaps without being told to do so.

If we're talking about the Dover crash, that is.
 

scoober78

(HCDAW)
pilot
Contributor
Actually, I'm almost positive that the crew called for 100% flaps in the accident. We heard an audio transcript at one of our CRM lectures...

The crew however was not inexperienced...the AC was an instructor rated guy.
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
Dumb question from a guy with very little ME Fixed wing time. (no rating)

Why did noone notice that 2 engines were at low/no thrust. Never heard that mentioned at all.
 

squorch2

he will die without safety brief
pilot
Probably the same reason that people land gear up, even in training environments like T-44s at Corpus... too much going on.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Guys, I understand it's posted on Youtube (illegally, I might add), so watch it until your eyes bleed, but there was another thread about this and since all of the info you guys are speaking about was from a mishap board, the thread was killed.

As per webmaster's request, please cease and desist on discussing the details about the incident other than what's in the press.
 
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