But then we could never fire them when they stop doing their job. Way easier to get rid of a dirtbag E/O than a dirtbag Federal employee...
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Yep, which reminds me, we want every single nitnoid program to be like esams then this is a good way to do that.
Contractors get fired all the time.
GS-whatevers don’t. Half of our civilians at 3 were atrocious, and nobody had long enough orders to follow through on getting them shitcanned.
Yeah. We could use this in the Reserve 1825/IP community. I've experienced rank discrimination on multiple occasions. That is, I've been in numerous situations (ORT and others) where my rank was equated to my level of competence. Had I been an O5 or O6 in those situations, I would have made some real impact to the operations. Instead, it was like, "hey LT, go sit over there." That is, go shut up an color. This is despite the fact that I have, for the last 10 years, managed and executed situations as ORT in the private sector. Meanwhile, that Active Duty O5 or O6 URL who is on his or her 2-3 year tour at the command and who has zero experience in the field is the one "in charge."
I feel bad for the folks getting commissioned these days. The recruiters play them up, "hey, we need people with your expertise... blah, blah." Then, the people get commissioned and find out the sad reality. At least on the Reserve side, we've had people leave because they come in and realize what a bunch of b.s. it was and that they are not in fact going to get to use their civilian skills to help.
For Intel and IP I'd say it's pretty disheartening. I see folks getting commissioned into Intel who speak multiple languages and who have real world experience and high education (because hey, that's what the recruiter is telling them the Reserve needs) come in and drool due to rank discrimination. It's just as bad if not worse on the IP side of the house. Folks with multiple certifications, phD's, etc. come in and are like "WTF" when they are treated like coffee runners.
That can be even more acute for enlisted. For example, I've met reserve HM1s and HM2s with masters degrees, one working as a civilian health care administrator and responsibilities equivalent to a senior 23xx LT, others credentialed as civilian nurses, etc., BU1 licensed as a professional engineer, and similar examples with other ratings. It begs the question, why don't they then get a commission? Well, they have competing commitments with their regular job, family, school, etc. and we don't exactly make it easy to get a commission easy (nor should it be, but still...). As for me, I have to make a conscious effort to remember that paygrade does not always equal ability in the reserves- not to mention it can certainly go wildly in either direction!
Being in charge means they're the one who gets in trouble first when something goes bad. Next comes good leadership, part of which includes figuring out how to use somebody whose skills are out of proportion to "paygrade = ability" conventional thinking and to manage it without getting in trouble with the military's rules. That comes down to the individual.
And I've seen the other side of it, where folks think they know better because of their civilian experience but don't because their job as a Navy Reserve officer ≠ what their civilian experience is except in rare cases. You don't need to know several languages or have a PhD in the history of a region to lead a group of sailors to do their job, which is what higher ranking intel O's do, you have to know how to lead sailors.
I've known quite a few reserve Intel/IW folks who have significant civilian experience do well in their careers, many with a mismatch between their civilian and military ranks/roles (like a senior SES who is an O-5 or an E-6 who is a GS-14), but they usually have learned how to strike a balance.
Overall the Navy Reserve DCO program has paid off for the Navy pretty well from what I've seen, it could provide a good model for how this new policy could be implemented.
The up or out system of the military is a useful tool that I’m not sure we should be scrapping.
So your argument is that anyone not fit to be a Commanding Officer holds no intrinsic value to the Navy, despite the millions of dollars invested in their training to that point?
I’d beg to differ.
Right now, given the standard JO tours that takes one to eight years post winging, the Navy gets back about 2000-2500 hours of flight time from most pilots in my community that get a production gig on shore tour.
Probably markedly less from my VFA/VAQ brethren.
To throw that training away on someone because they didn’t hit the right wickets to be a DH seems like a waste to me.
Selecting one to be a dirty hinge, like me, buys them one more flying tour (<1000 hours) and a staff tour, and then a look at XO/CO. Being passed over at that point still gets you to retirement, right now, at which the government now has a much larger investment given the average life span of a veteran retiring at 42 (or 44, in my case).
Again, seems like a waste of money to only get 3000-4000 hours out of a guy who has, at a minimum, received 1.5-2 million dollars of flight training.
Seems like we could get a lot more bang for our buck with flying billet tracked Officers who give you 7-10K hours over their career, while opting for a lower terminal pay grade , thus incurring a lower payout over a retired lifetime.
BLUF: It's been tried before:
Naval Aviation Pilot (NAP) program
Aviation Duty Officer (ADO) program (I may be remembering the name wrong...)
Flying Warrant Officer program
Aviation Operations LDO/CWO (path to NFO)
Others? Do any of these still exist?
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the issue isn't a lack of pilots, but a lack of enough "flying billets" available to even meet the career desires of the URL aviators. Not sure why you'd want to offer up some or any of them to folks who "just wanna fly".
They can go to "The Show", as many of our fellow AWs recommend.
There's room for the professional aviator concept in the short term but I don't think so in the long term.
Going back about six years, the number of Navy O-3 billets in the primary VT squadrons got cut by a small number (not much, just a handful each). Production goals had ebbed a bit so billets got trimmed, that's life.*
A few years before that, the last few station pilot billets and the base airplanes at the CONUS naval air stations finally went away. It used to be if you got orders to an NAS staff then you could usually take turns flying the station plane on log runs as a collateral duty (or probably just burning gas to make your 100 hours a year). NAS SAR dets worked almost the same way (I think all that's left on the blue side station SAR is Fallon, Whidbey, and Key West). So that's more than a few flying billets that dried up over the years- nickels and dimes make a difference. There are still a few station airplanes at overseas locations but not as many as there used to be.
First sea tour fleet pilots never used to have to run a chit/application through their squadron and the wing if they wanted to get flying orders for your first shore duty. Supply and demand has made that process a normal thing nowadays but it didn't used to be that way. Getting RAG orders was always like getting drafted to a sports team, lots of negotiations going on above your head, but if you wanted training command then your front office might not even get involved at all- just you and your detailer.
Back to the training command, production goals are about to go up and the squadrons will have to grow again, probably for a few years or so with how these cycles seem to work. Maybe this will also mean a small number of active duty O-4s who "just want to fly" can squeeze in one or two more sets of flying orders. That's not a "professional aviator" permanent stick monkey career path by design, it's dumb luck and timing. It's good timing for those who want it right now, so-so timing probably maybe five years from now when things ebb a bit, bad timing after that.
And back to supply and demand, the gaps in LCDR/DH fleet squadrons is going to make waves through the rest of the pilot billets in the fleet and shore establishment. There's some interchangeability between the different kinds of pilots and putting people in billets is one giant puzzle.
Rest assured, the sun will still rise and set each day...
* This cut the number of EPs that a command could give out and it made a logjam in each squadron for the guys who were getting to the end of their first shore tour. This happened at the same time as the last few prop and helo wings+7 pilots were matriculating through their initial commitments and now all of the pilots were wings+8, which put many more aviators up for promotion (the ones who would have voluntarily got out after wings+7 had to now stay in for the extra year), which made an even bigger logjam for all 13xx officers, which led to the atrocious LCDR selection rates for aviators for a few years. Keep people around an extra year just to fire them. Brilliant. Which brings us back to officer promotion overhaul...
Going back about six years, the number of Navy O-3 billets in the primary VT squadrons got cut by a small number (not much, just a handful each). Production goals had ebbed a bit so billets got trimmed, that's life.*
A few years before that, the last few station pilot billets and the base airplanes at the CONUS naval air stations finally went away. It used to be if you got orders to an NAS staff then you could usually take turns flying the station plane on log runs as a collateral duty (or probably just burning gas to make your 100 hours a year). NAS SAR dets worked almost the same way (I think all that's left on the blue side station SAR is Fallon, Whidbey, and Key West). So that's more than a few flying billets that dried up over the years- nickels and dimes make a difference. There are still a few station airplanes at overseas locations but not as many as there used to be.
First sea tour fleet pilots never used to have to run a chit/application through their squadron and the wing if they wanted to get flying orders for your first shore duty. Supply and demand has made that process a normal thing nowadays but it didn't used to be that way. Getting RAG orders was always like getting drafted to a sports team, lots of negotiations going on above your head, but if you wanted training command then your front office might not even get involved at all- just you and your detailer.
Back to the training command, production goals are about to go up and the squadrons will have to grow again, probably for a few years or so with how these cycles seem to work. Maybe this will also mean a small number of active duty O-4s who "just want to fly" can squeeze in one or two more sets of flying orders. That's not a "
And back to supply and demand, the gaps in LCDR/DH fleet squadrons is going to make waves through the rest of the pilot billets in the fleet and shore establishment. There's some interchangeability between the different kinds of pilots and putting people in billets is one giant puzzle.
Rest assured, the sun will still rise and set each day...
* This cut the number of EPs that a command could give out and it made a logjam in each squadron for the guys who were getting to the end of their first shore tour. This happened at the same time as the last few prop and helo wings+7 pilots were matriculating through their initial commitments and now all of the pilots were wings+8, which put many more aviators up for promotion (the ones who would have voluntarily got out after wings+7 had to now stay in for the extra year), which made an even bigger logjam for all 13xx officers, which led to the atrocious LCDR selection rates for aviators for a few years. Keep people around an extra year just to fire them. Brilliant. Which brings us back to officer promotion overhaul...
FormerRecruitingGuru
Making Recruiting Great Again
Will this impact what percent get jets?
None of these is what we're talking about, or what NAE is currently working on.
Surprise! You're wrong. The issue is precisely a lack of Instructor Pilots in key production billets.
This is a good time to jump back into this thread, now that I've consolidated my notes from the CNAF Conference. Here are some new initiatives that will offer some of you options and flexibility in your careers.
First off, I'll remind the crowd that the up or out model is in use for a very specific purpose: Provide PERS with adequate numbers of eligible officers so that boards have the desired selectivity at control grades. There's a great slide (that I wish I had now) that paints this picture well. PERS-43 will probably brief to it during the Tailhook presentations (which are streamed online if you can't be there). Recommend watching his brief.
So, here's what's coming down the pipe:
- FOSx2 O4 continuation boards:
Addresses things like the O4 board bloodbath of several years ago, where we, frankly, didn't take very good care of our people. This will allow FOSx2 officers to continue to reach their 20 year mark if they so desire.
- Twilight tour for terminal/non-due course O4/O5s in VT/HT/FRS production billets:
Leverages existing instructor talent to increase needed production while setting people up for transition to the airlines (my take).
- 3rd look on statutory board for O4/O5 where timing issues made an individual non-competitive during their first two looks.
- Increased opportunity for due course O4s to attend in residence JPME:
This is something that the other services emphasize more than NAE has to this point. The new FITREP system and SG flexibility will help facilitate the timing for this.
- Below Zone selections increased:
BLUF: If you've met your professional milestones early, the boards will now consider you for a BZ look.
- Permanent Instructor Pilot program:
As previously described, this will be a competitive selection board targeted at non-due course officers (or not interested in command track) to become permanent IPs, filling much needed TRACOM/TRAWING (possibly FRS) billets. Will remain in such billets until 20 years service. Expecting the first board this Fall with a NAVADMIN out soon.
- Reinstituting SERGRAD program.
- Career Intermission Program update:
The first crop of CIP participants are back in the mix at control grade milestones. Thus far, they're playing well at the boards and the first CIP participant has screened for (I think VFA) command after taking time off for having kids. BL, more career flexibility.
- Separate Summary Group or sub-billet category for Super JOs so they don't soak up first tour EPs:
New FITREP system will make this OBE, but this is good news for JOs.
So, lots of new stuff heading toward the fleet. Will this solve all our issues, of course not, but it does provide a lot of increased flexibility for officers while addressing some of the production shortfalls.
I'll hit the new FITREP/Eval system in a separate post.
Discuss!
I wish people would stop saying “BLUF”. If you want to state the bottom line up front, just say it. Saying “BLUF” first defeats the purpose of just stating the main idea. Bottom line up second after a stupid PowerPoint acronym.
BLUSASPPA
BLUSASPPA