OCS vs NROTC

[wallythenycat]

Congress wrote it into law back in the 1920s when carriers were first really starting to get going. The "prewar Navy was run by battleship sailors who were suspicious of carriers" thing is a cultural myth within the Navy. Getting into Naval aviation and carrier command was very much seen as a way for 'hot runners' to get a leg up on their competition. Congress wanted to ensure that carriers were run by qualified aviation officers, not just ambitious Blackshoes.

You could do it other ways. Large deck 'phibs, which would be considered carriers in almost anyone else's Navy, alternate between aviator CO and SWO XOs, and vice versa. But as for the CVNs, it's still law that they're commanded by pilots and NFOs, and it's so welded in place now it's unlikely to change.

How do these career aviators learn to drive the ship, or are they COs in name only and SWOs really drive the carriers?

 

[wallythenycat]

He was probably pulling your leg a bit. I've met a lot of really sharp dudes in my career who liked to play the "I'm just a dummy from State U" act. But yes, there are quite a few pilots out there in the Navy and Marines who did not pursue STEM educations.

You don't really need to know much in the way of math or engineering to be a pilot, by the way. Most of what you actually use in the Fleet doesn't go beyond arithmetic and rule-of-thumb. "You can measure with a micrometer, but the pilot's going to cut with an axe," as one of my nav instructors at VT-10 was fond of saying.

Somewhat different story if you want to pursue something like being a test pilot, but even then you don't have to have been a STEM major to get selected for TPS, just have enough STEM coursework in your background to show the selection board you can hack the program.

Uncle Fester,

He may have indeed been pulling my leg a bit. English major or not, I am sure he was pretty bright. After all, he got through OCS, flight school, and later became a captain of a major airline.

 

[Griz882]

How do these career aviators learn to drive the ship, or are they COs in name only and SWOs really drive the carriers?

They have a school and training program for that. I’m not sure what it looks like today, but typically aviators went to a SWO course that includes nuke power training followed by a carrier XO tour and then command of a smaller vessel (like an amphib) and then on to the big deck.

 

[Flash]

There are plenty of history and recreation majors flying in the Navy, but it is worth noting not all English, history and poli-sci majors are equal. USNA's first two years are basically an engineering core requiring two years of Calculus and Physics. They award a Bachelors of Science in English. I have known at least 3 submariners that were non-engineers. One an English major. But, they all were from USNA.

My favorite was the Skipper who had a double major in French and Women's Studies, he was a nice but a little quirky.

 

[wallythenycat]

They have a school and training program for that. I’m not sure what it looks like today, but typically aviators went to a SWO course that includes nuke power training followed by a carrier XO tour and then command of a smaller vessel (like an amphib) and then on to the big deck.

Thanks. I assume that only the commanders (O-5) who are on track to be a carrier XO get selected for the SWO course. Is (Was) the course about 6 months? And, does this aviator ever, umm, actually, fly, while attending this course or commanding a smaller vessel?

What's the best career course for a naval aviator who would rather keep flying than deal with management/command gigs? Is such a track even possible in the navy, or should an aviator get out and fly for the airlines or something of they want to keep flying until 60 or 65?

 

[FormerRecruitingGuru]

Thanks. I assume that only the commanders (O-5) who are on track to be a carrier XO get selected for the SWO course. Is (Was) the course about 6 months? And, does this aviator ever, umm, actually, fly, while attending this course or commanding a smaller vessel?

Aviators NOT in the nuclear pipeline can also command amphibious ships. They attend similar - ish ship training as their CVN and SWO counterparts - not sure how long the actual training is.

What's the best career course for a naval aviator who would rather keep flying than deal with management/command gigs? Is such a track even possible in the navy, or should an aviator get out and fly for the airlines or something of they want to keep flying until 60 or 65?

Yes. https://www.mynavyhr.navy.mil/Caree...s-43-Aviation/Professional-Flight-Instructor/

 

[FormerRecruitingGuru]

Carrier XO tour is on the path to CO? And same with amphibs? Does community and career path up to that point have something to do with it? Like would a helo CVN CO have a different path than VFA CVN CO?

it's my understanding once you're selected for CVN everyone is on the same "track" regardless of platform/background.

 

[Sonog]

it's my understanding once you're selected for CVN everyone is on the same "track" regardless of platform/background.

Removed my post, I had some severe misunderstandings that weren't worth sowing further confusion.

 

[wallythenycat]

Aviators NOT in the nuclear pipeline can also command amphibious ships. They attend similar - ish ship training as their CVN and SWO counterparts - not sure how long the actual training is.



Yes. https://www.mynavyhr.navy.mil/Caree...s-43-Aviation/Professional-Flight-Instructor/

Wow. Thanks. I never heard of the PFI track. Do many commanders apply for it? Is it selective? If selected, I assume one can go no higher than Captain (even though I understand that regardless of career path, almost no one gets a star)?

 

[cfam]

Wow. Thanks. I never heard of the PFI track. Do many commanders apply for it? Is it selective? If selected, I assume one can go no higher than Captain (even though I understand that regardless of career path, almost no one gets a star)?

I wouldn’t get your hopes up about PFI as a long-term plan. It’s a small scale program that may not be around when you would be eligible. Also, while it may keep you in the cockpit for longer, you certainly won’t be in a Navy aircraft until 60 years old regardless of your career path.

 

[Uncle Fester]

Wow. Thanks. I never heard of the PFI track. Do many commanders apply for it? Is it selective? If selected, I assume one can go no higher than Captain (even though I understand that regardless of career path, almost no one gets a star)?

What @cfam said. PFI is a very small program with a very iffy future, and I wouldn’t get too invested in it for your own career plans. It’s one of the various small scale deals the Navy’s tinkered around with over the last 10-20 years trying to establish some kind of limited “permanent pilot” track that lets some folks stay in the cockpit and retain their experience in the Fleet without worrying about “up or out.” It’s more likely to go the way of the Flying Warrants.

If you fly Navy, assume you’re going to have to do a traditional career track. If you want to just stay in the cockpit, look at the Army.

 

[wallythenycat]

What @cfam said. PFI is a very small program with a very iffy future, and I wouldn’t get too invested in it for your own career plans. It’s one of the various small scale deals the Navy’s tinkered around with over the last 10-20 years trying to establish some kind of limited “permanent pilot” track that lets some folks stay in the cockpit and retain their experience in the Fleet without worrying about “up or out.” It’s more likely to go the way of the Flying Warrants.

If you fly Navy, assume you’re going to have to do a traditional career track. If you want to just stay in the cockpit, look at the Army.

Army as a warrant officer, I assume? Officers in Army Aviation, I presume, also rotate between the cockpit and desk jobs?

 

[Uncle Fester]

Army as a warrant officer, I assume? Officers in Army Aviation, I presume, also rotate between the cockpit and desk jobs?

Not really. Army Aviation works a lot differently than the Navy, AF, or Marines. Basically the CWOs are the professional aviators, while the regular line officers are the unit commanders/staff officers...RLOs also fly but that's not their "main" job. CWOs "track" (specialize) in Safety, Instructor/Stan, Mission Survivability (tactics, etc) or Mx/Test, and are expected to be the unit experts in their track. They'll do tours outside of a deploying unit but they don't do a "sea-shore" type rotation like the Navy.

 

[Griz882]

Not really. Army Aviation works a lot differently than the Navy, AF, or Marines. Basically the CWOs are the professional aviators, while the regular line officers are the unit commanders/staff officers...RLOs also fly but that's not their "main" job. CWOs "track" (specialize) in Safety, Instructor/Stan, Mission Survivability (tactics, etc) or Mx/Test, and are expected to be the unit experts in their track. They'll do tours outside of a deploying unit but they don't do a "sea-shore" type rotation like the Navy.

Great explanation.

 

[wallythenycat]

So, Army officers who have aviator wings basically get most of their flying done early in their career?

Would a colonel ever fly on a mission? If so, who would really be in charge? The colonel or the senior chief warrant officer who probably has more flying time than the colonel? Is it awkward when a warrant officer flies with LTs and above who may have less flying experience than them?

Finally, are warrant officers saluted by the enlisted and called "Sir" or "Ma'am"? Does a warrant officer salute a 2ndLT and call her "Ma'am"?