• Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?

    Go here:

    Edit Account Details and Profile

New scholarship rules

CommodoreMid

Whateva! I do what I want!
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
In case you didn't know, the Navy's changing its rules for NROTC scholarships for next year. Under the new rules, 85% of incoming scholarship mids have to have a "tier 1" or "tier 2" major. You can find the list of these on the NROTC website. Midshipmen who try to change to a "tier 3" major (which is pretty much any liberal arts major) after receiving the scholarship could potentially be stripped of it.

What do yall think of this? Obviously, it doesn't affect me, but I still think it's bullshit. Does the Navy have any empirical evidence suggesting that we history majors make crappier officers than engineers? No, we may not have had some of the information you see in the fleet while in school, but thousands of officers have gone through without problems with their history, music, and English degrees. Isn't that the reason we take the two semesters of physics and calc, so that we have the tools to understand the mechanical concepts when we get to the fleet?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't USNA even have a more liberal policy than this? I seem to remember when applying that they said 1/3 of USNA mids were engineers, 1/3 were math and science, and 1/3 could be liberal arts. Granted, yall get BS degrees no matter what, but why doesn't the Navy simply require NROTC scholarship mids to take some of the classes all USNA mids take, such as chemistry? While each individual school may still not award you a BS, if they standardized these technical classes, wouldn't you accomplish the same thing?

Also, why not create a positive reinforcement system to encourage people to go to a technical major, instead of effectively preventing those of us with liberal arts bends from joining the program? Why not do something like give technical majors more stipend money?

Finally, is this the Navy's push to make more people go nuke? If so, they are going to fail miserably. If they want people to go nuke, they should make nuke suck less. The class below mine at my ROTC unit, for example, has 15 Navy option mids who are not nurses. Of those 13 are engineering majors. Guess how many of them want to go nuke? Zero. Furthermore, excluding the 3 kids in my class who went naval reactors (which apparently was a really weird incident) of the 5 people from my unit in the classes of 2006, 2007, and 2008 who went nuke, 3 of them were nontechnical majors!

I do not see a good future for the NROTC program under this policy. First, fewer people are going to apply because they will see their chances as futile. I know I wouldn't be in the program, and since I could not have afforded to go to my school (or the only other one that accepted me) without the scholarship, I would not be a naval officer now. Also, I foresee this causing much more attrition in the program. Kids who don't want to be engineers are going to apply for the program as engineers because they won't be able to get the scholarship otherwise, and they won't be able to handle the work. Some people are not cut out to be engineers, but why does that mean they are not cut out to be naval officers?
 

AUtiger

Crossing over to the dark side
pilot
This information would have been useful earlier today when the kid I was interviewing asked if him being a Business major would affect his chances.
 

navy09

Registered User
None
Wow! I'm glad I "got mine." I think that limiting liberal arts/social science majors to 15% of the program is crazy. I mean, we all have to take Calc I/II and Phys I/II anyway. It's not like they're getting officers with no math/science (maybe very few from OCS?).

This is going to dissuade a lot of very qualified people from joining the program (rather than strong-arming them into a math/science/engineering major like they think it will).
 

Sky-Pig

Retired Cryptologic Warfare / Naval Flight Officer
None
Interesting.

Of course, I can't tell you the number of times when I was a hard charging DIVO who pushed the salty chief petty officer aside and then saved the day by correctly solving a quadratic equation.

Wait...yes I can...exactly never.

I have, however, used the basic psychology that I was not allowed to take at Canoe U (Sailor X, tell the offended party you are contrite...okay, Sailor Y do you feel better now?), basic economics (teaching Sailor Z how to avoid going to Mast due to financial incompetence), and my undergraduate BS in English degree (writing a bazillion evals and fitreps).

Don't get me wrong, the Navy has need of technically literate officers. And yet...what is the basic expectation of a naval officer? Leadership...with all the messy, non-scientific inter-personal BS that is part and parcel of that skill.

There is likely a logical reason for this change...not enough nukes or what-have-you...but 85% (if true) seems like overkill.

Is there a requirement for these future engineers to take humanities course as electives, I wonder?
 

BlackBearHockey

go blue...
I heard about this sometime last year, but just rumor-wise so I didn't throw it out. I'm not very happy about hearing it (although I'm obviously biased). The biggest thing that people get out of a humanities or liberal arts major are the intangibles associated with, something that is so underrated not only in the military, but the country to an extent, what with the cutting of music/art/etc. programs nearly everywhere to increase science and math scores. I fear the Navy is funneling a group of future officers into a position where everyone will be thinking the same because they've all read the same textbooks that teach the same formula. Half the engineers in my unit, while educated and wonderful people, can pull their shoe out of their ass. Obviously, a little sea salt and everyone becomes a different person, but the problem solving skills, etc., are very different from the engineer type to the humanities type. Not bad, not good, just different: a difference I think is essential to any working environment. That's personality is one of the things that sets Naval officers apart from Army/AF/USMC (to an extent).
 

armada1651

Hey intern, get me a Campari!
pilot
It's always seemed to me that the Naval services have a much stronger sense of history and tradition than the Air Force and Army. For some reason I feel like this undermines that to some extent. I believe a liberal arts education can be very valuable to a Naval officer...I don't think this new policy is a good one. But I'm just a dumb ensign.
 

VulcanRider

New Member
pilot
I understand big Navy's motivation for technical degrees. Think about it, we work on the largest machines in the world. We manage/lead the sailors that maintain/run them. We should be able to understand how/why things work the way they do, and have the technical knowledge to be able and learn from our sailors. A good place to start, is with a technical major dealing with alot of analytical/outside the box thinking. The humanities classes are important too, because we all know the people who are too smart for their own good (super engineers). Being well rounded is what it's all about.

Plus, if you already know alot of the engineering/physics stuff in the API books, that just leaves you more time to party on the weekends.
 

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
The air force offers their scholarships this way. Nerds run the AF. Coincidence? I think not. The Navy is passing up on a lot of talented people this way. I know I wouldn't have given the Navy a second look if they had told me "you don't have a chance at a scholarship unless you're a double E major," which is what this policy amounts to. I had no desire to study something that didn't interest me in college, and I think I'm doing alright so far with my non-technical major. The Marines would have been processing my packet, and I would have dealt with 12 weeks of fun in the sun in Q-town rather than 5 years of Engineering at Virginia Tech.

We require everyone to have a basic understanding of technical subjects (calculus, physics, chem, and a few other mando courses at ROTC), why do we need everyone to be a slide rulin' techweenie?
 

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
Plus, if you already know alot of the engineering/physics stuff in the API books, that just leaves you more time to party on the weekends.

Engineers DO NOT have a leg up in API. They over think every problem, and spend hours proving why their wrong answer was the right answer. I smoked my roommate at API and in Primary ground school (not that it counts for anything). He was a cum laude Aero Engineer at VT...the Dood designed a STOL cargo aircraft from the ground up for his senior project.

API and primary is all about taking large amounts of info, processing, and regurgitating it. Reading 9 books a class a semester probably amounted to a better advantage in the academics of flying for me than if I were a enginerd.
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
...gee, you guys are going to be like the Air Force, but with ships! Sounds like a blast!
 

Bevo16

Registered User
pilot
It is really stupid, and it has been done before. Some of the guys who have been around longer than I have can probably tell the story better, but here is my best effort of parroting my former CO's version:

Shortly after tailhook, some of the big brains who are in charge of manpower decided that our aviators and Navy in general had to many "Maverick" wanna-be's, jocks, and meat-heads who came in on the "poly-sci and fly" program (just happens to be my degree). They decided to raise the standards for flight school and put a really heavy emphasis on math and science. The end result was a bunch of really smart guys flunking out of flight school or crashing aircraft.

If anyone has any more detail to that, I would love to hear it. Or if it's total BS, feel free to call it as such.

One thing is for certain, I built more skills that are useful to an aviator by playing football than I did by reading Thomas Hobbs. I also learned more about being a leader by being a 3rd class petty officer and getting some leadership experience before hitting ROTC.

This is a very stupid idea by big Navy. Having a diverse wardroom is a lot more important that having a bunch of engineers walking around with slide rules. I was lucky enough to fly in an air wing that had a Marine F-18 squadron. Sure, the barking and grunting was annoying, but they brought a different and valuable perspective to the fight. I would rather see the Navy tighten up the final GPA requirements instead of limiting types of degrees that Mids can go after.
 

VulcanRider

New Member
pilot
Engineers DO NOT have a leg up in API. They over think every problem, and spend hours proving why their wrong answer was the right answer. I smoked my roommate at API and in Primary ground school (not that it counts for anything). He was a cum laude Aero Engineer at VT...the Dood designed a STOL cargo aircraft from the ground up for his senior project.

API and primary is all about taking large amounts of info, processing, and regurgitating it. Reading 9 books a class a semester probably amounted to a better advantage in the academics of flying for me than if I were a enginerd.


Easy, I didn't mean that engineering majors are going to smoke people in API or that they are better officers. My point was, and maybe I wasn't stating this as clearly as I could have, that we should be well rounded coming from our commissioning sources. That means having a background in technical and humanities. I mentioned the people that are too smart for their own good, and that includes those individuals who can't simplify problems, and end up making them alot more difficult than they are.

Think about it, our society, the military, and the world is becoming increasingly more technical. It's only natural that the Navy would want more and more people with increasingly technical backgrounds because in 30+ years, it's going to be these MIDN running the Navy.
 

gtg941f

Member
pilot
People need to realize that engineers and science majors are more than capable of doing all the fantastic things poly sci and humanities majors do. Believe it or not, they're capable of being social, or even being a people person (I do understand there are many dorks that come out of these programs). I have several friends who majored in engineering and are now at top tier law schools laughing about how easy it is and watching their classmates, who were all 3.9+ GPA type people, freaking out as they had never been pushed so hard in their undergrad curriculum. I feel that an engineering degree is simply a good indicator of one's ability to interpret advanced technical thought/pubs, which certainly can't be a bad thing.

This is only 1 of the 3 primary commissioning sources and they're tightening up the type of people they want to give scholarships. It doesn't seem so unreasonable to me. It's no different than accepting a higher percentage of technical majors for OCS. I'm sure that the Navy isn't going to look like a scene from Revenge of the Nerds a few years down the road because of this. It'll be nothing more than a small percentage more of people with increased technical skills.
 

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
we already get a lot of people who come from an engineering background. Easily half of my graduating class was an engineer. 98% of my class were sharp kids, regardless of their major. We've been improving technologically forever, there's not going to be some quantum leap in how we operate with a bunch of number crunchers running around as retard JO's. The quantum leap will be when all those number crunchers are in charge, and we go down the same path as the AF in the ever expanding desire for newer, more expensive toys we don't need and end up getting our peepees smacked by congress.

We take people who aren't technical majors, and train them up in a variety of technical fields. Every URL officer becomes a technical expert in their warfare community.

This is one thing that really does get me steamed. Personal bias, so disregard the following as anything other than my 2 cents, but we had a ROTC CO who would give dirtball engineers (2.7 GPA, failed PRTs, piss poor performance as a Mid) scholarships before a 3.7 non-tech major with a solid PRT scores. It was disheartening to say the least, and had me seriously considering other paths until a new CO came in, stuck his neck out, and personally got me a scholarship. I'm not gods gift to the navy, but i bust my ass, and haven't failed to meet my personal goals or any goal the Navy told me to meet. Not bad for a stupid poli sci major. Losing people who are willing to do the same so they can have BS on a stupid sheet of paper isn't worth it, IMHO.
 
Top