Navy vs Air Force

[contrail_dash]

Navy training vs Air Force training....

I just had two very close friends drop out of AF UPT. Both were halfway through T-37's and quit. No bad marks for either one. Both said how much they hated it and these guys LOVE flying. The first guy said that the Navy instructors doing the joint training commented that if they had to put up with the same crap as he was, they'd have quit as well.

So far none of my Navy buds have quit.

Does anyone here have any personal experience with this? At this point I'm just curious as to the various training "philosophies" are for each service.

 

[perchul]

uh oh

 

[perchul]

well I'm going to say what little of whats been handed down to me, a USMC Major was briefing us on the pipeline and the various routes we could go. He commented that we should avoid Vance at all cost because he felt the AF took some minor things to seriously (eg. pricks over insignificant stuff, I don't not know what said stuff is and no one here could but I think we can all agree there is such a thing as stuff that doesn't need to be done). Afterwards I came to the conclusion the AF is very pricklike about minor things because they feel like they need to prove that they aren't 9-5 and are as or near as tough compared to the other 3 services. Bottom Line they have Penis envy

 

[contrail_dash]

Its funny you metion Vance, thats where one of my pals was. The other was at Del Rio. Both remarked on the "nitpicking" of instructors on frivilous crap. On another note I talked to my old man about all this. He's a Coastie rotorhead so he did all Naval training, but he mentioned that the Coastie C-130 guys that go to Little Rock can't stand the Air Force guys.

 

[Dupe]

I'm an AF dude, and I've had fun at P-cola so far. However, I think there isn't enough class unity on the Navy side. Here, people roll in, people roll out, and nobody seems to care. You're with the same people for at least six months, so you get to know them all really well. In UPT, you will never roll back unless something very freakish has occured. Here, at least in API, they will roll you for having a cold.

 

[TSPO]

There are benefits and drawbacks to both training regimens. A benefit of the Air Force's is that it gives every opportunity for success by forceing the student pilots to study and to "pay attention to detail." A drawback is putting up with the 12+ hour days and alot of seemingly overbearing and nitpicky IP's. Some guys excel under pressure, some guys crumble. The Air Force isn't interested in training pilots that are likely to fail under pressure. I don't want some guy on my wing that quits UPT because people were mean to him.

Consider UPT sort of a "right of passage." If a pilot doesn't have the foresight to see through the bs and get the big picture, then he/she doesn't deserve the wings. Bottom line, UPT is very demanding, mentally and physically, as it should be. It is about training warriors, not airline pilots. While the Navy produces high quality pilots as well, their requirements are different. Pure speculation, but I'd guess the stress inherent in landing on the boat is sufficient to weed out the weak, and they don't feel the need to add any more (stress) to the program.

 

[wink]

The comments above seem to be a fair assesment from my experience. I just had an Ensign SNA stashed in my office awhile back. He confirmed all I had heard about UPT from AF buddies. It is nit pickie in the detail stuff. He hated it. You will find that isn't generally the case in the Navy. I think the AF must treat UPT like an indoctrination program with a certain level of attrition a goal. The Navy does not view Primary in that way at all. The philosophy is that the BS and indocrination should take place before actual flight training. There is no attrition goal in the Navy program. You don't compete against the next guy but earn your own way. Any stress in the program is directly associated with the students ability to deal with the tasks at hand. Stress is not generally introduced to the program for the purposes of stressing out the student.

 

[contrail_dash]

Thanks guys, some very level headed replies there. Good points as well. Basically I just wanted to hear from those of you who've had experience before I formed any misguided opinions.

 

[bunk22]

It's been a while since I attended primary and as I understand it, the grading system has been altered a bit. The way it used to be done is how we still do it at the FRS, we give Above's, average's, below's, or unsat's for every flight. It always seemed to me that there was a bit too much subjectivity in the way the grades were given out, especially in primary. What I did like about Navy flight training was the fact that if I wasn't flying or standing duty, I didn't have to be around the squadron. You're treated like a professional in that being prepared for a flight or event is up to the individual student. No need for holding a students hand through the program. I know I didn't need it. I knew what was expected and usually performed above that. The competition and the threat of an unsat hanging above their heads for poor performance on any flight usually brings out the best in most students.

 

[lvgravy]

All the AF pilots I’ve worked with who trained with the Navy said they loved it, especially after hearing what their contemporaries went through in Tweets. Many of the new pilots wish they had completed primary with the Navy. A buddy of mine who completed UPT and Vance is trying to get an instructor position at Whiting after hearing about the Navy way of training…well that and the location.

The biggest reason why most AF pilots loved the Navy way of training is because of the reasons stated above…they don’t hold your hand, less regulations, and far less BS. The Navy environment is far more laid back, though the training is just as intense. When I hear pilots compare the two, the argument on the AF side seems somewhat half-hearted because I think most would really rather be in Pensacola than Vance or Del Rio or any of the other great AF location even if they admit it or not.

The big negative I hear about AF guys going through T34’s is that when they get to T-1’s or T-38’s they are a little behind because they are not used to doing stand up or dealing with and looking through endless piles of AF regulations and bureaucracy.

Either way in the end is the result is pretty much the same.

 

[TSPO]

I have to agree with part of what IV said. I'd much rather be in Pensacola for the location, however, I'd hate to have to switch from the Navy style of training to the Air Force style midway through. I hear it is quite the slap in the face, and not very conducive to attaining the ultimate goal. If I have to go through the harder version, I want to do it the whole way, without becoming accustomed to the laid back training, then having to switch to the time-intensive training. I kind of like the punishment, anyway. Makes one more proud in the end to look back on what they've done.

 

[bunk22]

Originally posted by TSPO
I have to agree with part of what IV said. I'd much rather be in Pensacola for the location, however, I'd hate to have to switch from the Navy style of training to the Air Force style midway through. I hear it is quite the slap in the face, and not very conducive to attaining the ultimate goal. If I have to go through the harder version, I want to do it the whole way, without becoming accustomed to the laid back training, then having to switch to the time-intensive training. I kind of like the punishment, anyway. Makes one more proud in the end to look back on what they've done.

Once again, you're talking out of your ass when you say Naval flight training is laid back. The most important part of flight training is the pre-brief to post-brief and Naval flight training is very intense where it matters. Where one studies, house, library, squadron makes no difference. IMO, the Air Force way isn't harder, just more anal. Anyway, it would be better to hear from someone who has at least attended or instructed Air Force UPT. I know that the few students that I've flown with who attended the Air Force version of primary are no better or worse than their soley navy trained counterparts.

 

[Vic]

If you're lazy don't come to AF training. That is all that needs to be said!!

 

[Doc_52]

....uh, Vic....are you saying that if you are lazy you should try the Navy (or Marines) instead of AF? Surely that's not what you mean....

 

[phrogdriver]

If AF UPT is harder, it doesn't show in Advanced. Their attrition rate in Strike is literally off the graph. In helos, they are having problems at a much higher rate that Navy Primary grads, as well. Students coming out of Vance aren't prepared to handle sim EPs in the air, for example, not to mention the fact that their study skills are often poor, being used to study halls all that time.