Thats good info - thank you!
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Navy/Marine/Army/Differences in procedures and mindset
- Thread starter PhrogPhlyer
- Start date
No barrier to Navy doing it. Did it plenty in the HH. Think we still needed an O6 from the team we supported to sign off. Never remember having the CDRE sign off on it, because nothing tells us we have to do so. If I remember correctly, think AFSOC required O6 approval, too.
It’s like the most misunderstood “who is waiving what” waiver.
There are a lot of aviation commanders who for whatever reason want to make a seats out waiver of their own, and we explain that neither needed nor correct. Likewise we would get some non swoopy ground units that didn’t do them regularly and would ask us for them just to Pikachu face when we told them no that’s your dad not mine.
In other words,"It's not MY guys who'll die if this shit goes sideways."
When did this start? Not in the '80s (yup, old Corps again). We would load the CH-46 as needed for the ground unit being supported. Seats or not, wasn't ever a consideration.
Yes, most of the time it was seats, but if not, there weren't any wavers, nor even a requirement to use seats.
The CH-46 pax seats were about as crashworthy as a folding chair.
I'm guessing when stroking passenger seats became more prevalent in the fleet the safety delta between seats and no seats became more apparent to leadership.
Thanks, had not considered the new seat designs.
It’s always been that way so long as I’ve been around so I couldn’t tell you when it started exactly.
There have also been expected mission sets where seats out had to happen, but the waiver is more a memorandum of accepting risk, not a barrier to doing things a specific way.
What I’ve seen it used for is keeping some of the lower level handshake training getting on with “hey I saw the cool guys do this once.” It’s a way to pump the breaks on some young PL and aviation Company commander from getting way out ahead of what their rank can accept as far as risk. MBO super briefers are expected to act as a sort of shaping tool on this stuff. Show me the validity of the training (ex: sniper or helo cast with a ground unit that has it on their METL), show me your plan to mitigate risk, ok as a briefer this is in line with standards let’s go see the boss.
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This seems to be an Army thing in general. I've found working with numerous Army non-aviators that their culture is very rigid and creativity isn't to be expected.
🤣
The irony of this comment coming a SWO is not lost on anyone here. Pot meet kettle.
Assuming the latest ASTACSOP is correct, SOF only require a seats-out waiver from their own O-6 commander, but NAVMC 3500.14 requires it from the supporting aviation unit's O-6 commander, as well.
Fun fact: you need a seats-out waiver if you're planning to seat pax in an internally-transported MRZR or similar vehicle, too. It's not just for secret squirrel types carabinering themselves to the floor tie-down points.
Fun fact: you need a seats-out waiver if you're planning to seat pax in an internally-transported MRZR or similar vehicle, too. It's not just for secret squirrel types carabinering themselves to the floor tie-down points.
Well if a former SWO says another service is rigid in their approach to things then maybe he knows what he's talking about.
