Naval Aviations "One" Problem...

[Empire16]

Hey guys I have to do a presentation about problems in a field of work I am interested in for one of my classes. So, what are some of your guys opinion on what the biggest problem in naval aviation is? I think after a little bit of research that it is a problem with people staying in the Navy after doing their 8/10 years after winging. Or maybe having to stay on the "golden path" to rank up?

Let me know guys!

Thanks in advance!

 

[sevenhelmet]

Hey guys I have to do a presentation about problems in a field of work I am interested in for one of my classes. So, what are some of your guys opinion on what the biggest problem in naval aviation is? I think after a little bit of research that it is a problem with people staying in the Navy after doing their 8/10 years after winging. Or maybe having to stay on the "golden path" to rank up?

Let me know guys!

Thanks in advance!

You'll get at least as many opinions as there are members here on this one, but I'd say the biggest issue is denial about the manning crisis. From what I hear, it's gotten bad. People have been leaving in droves for years, and the training command isn't allocated the resources it needs (planes, pilots, etc.) to train an adequate number of replacement pilots, even in an environment with higher retention ("up or out" takes pilots away regardless.)

Hmmm. Maybe I'll change my answer to "resources in the training commands".

 

[Empire16]

You'll get at least as many opinions as there are members here on this one, but I'd say the biggest issue is denial about the manning crisis. From what I hear, it's gotten bad. People have been leaving in droves for years, and the training command isn't allocated the resources it needs (planes, pilots, etc.) to train an adequate number of replacement pilots, even in an environment with higher retention ("up or out" takes pilots away regardless.)

Hmmm. Maybe I'll change my answer to "resources in the training commands".

What solutions would you say would help solve this problem? Increased pay of course, with more flying hours, and less mundane hours?

 

[Roger_Waveoff]

What solutions would you say would help solve this problem? Increased pay of course, with more flying hours, and less mundane hours?

I don't think the pay is anywhere near the push factor many people, especially at the higher levels, seem to think it is. Yes, the pay is very good at the airlines, but the pay+benefits are also very good as an O-4+ in the military. What I really see driving good pilots to get out of the military are the lack of control/predictability with regards to one's career and where you have to live. Unfortunately, those are often just the nature of the military. If we let everyone pick their duty station no questions asked, the Marine Corps may as well just close every MCAS except Kaneohe Bay, Miramar, and Camp Pendleton.

One issue I think needs some serious examination is the ever-growing administrative work that makes it so difficult to focus on the few times a month we do fly. How many times have we all heard someone say, "Hey dude, I'll handle that later; I'm in my flight box now"? Compared to airline pilots (really any professional aviator outside the military), when they're not in their flight box, 99% of the time they're off the clock entirely. What a dream that would be. For whatever reason, we've accepted mediocrity in the sense that we have aviators being Admin-Os, Log-Os, Comm-Os, Legal-Os...all jobs which have Primary MOS-producing schoolhouses and in a ground battalion you'd see an actual PMOS-holder doing that job. But we can't staff our flying squadrons the same way? I don't buy it. Sometime, somewhere, somebody up the chain had to decide that.

The other is the relative lack of flight time, again, compared to basically every other field of professional pilots. Admittedly, maintenance is the key limiting factor here. Certain T/M/S (looking right at my own as well as CH-53s) will never be able to fly as much as others due to maintenance burden, but there are creative solutions around this. Look at the Air Force's B-2 and U-2 squadrons. You're crazy if they think those crews take those national assets out for FAM/INST sorties on the regular. They have T-38As, the most basic steam gauge jet in the DoD, for that. I don't think it's crazy to wonder if we could get two T-6s, with contract maintenance, assigned to each squadron for the same purpose.

 

[Hopeful Hoya]

A JO from my fleet tour had a theory about retention, and it basically boiled down to three things (for Pilots specifically, from the single seat VFA perspective):

1) Poor compensation relative to the civilian sector
2) Poor duty locations
3) Lack of resources (NIPR laptops, personnel in terms of collateral duties, training devices both for simulators and live flight, etc)

His argument was if you fix one of these problems then you will greatly improve retention. But when you force people to accept all three, coupled with the high ops-tempo of VFA squadrons when you’re home or away, it’s too much to ask for unless you are 100% sold on the Navy as a career.

 

[Brett327]

A JO from my fleet tour had a theory about retention, and it basically boiled down to three things (for Pilots specifically, from the single seat VFA perspective):

1) Poor compensation relative to the civilian sector
2) Poor duty locations
3) Lack of resources (NIPR laptops, personnel in terms of collateral duties, training devices both for simulators and live flight, etc)

His argument was if you fix one of these problems then you will greatly improve retention. But when you force people to accept all three, coupled with the high ops-tempo of VFA squadrons when you’re home or away, it’s too much to ask for unless you are 100% sold on the Navy as a career.

So, move every Lemoore squadron to San Diego. Problem solved! CAGs and their staffs should have to remain at NLC. 😀

 

[DanMa1156]

So, move every Lemoore squadron to San Diego. Problem solved! CAGs and their staffs should have to remain at NLC. 😀

In all seriousness, I don't entirely understand what limits us compared to civilian companies with respect to computer access ashore. Does it need to be 1:1? Absolutely not. Does it need to be better than it is? Absolutely. I know I am going to get the "oh you helo guys are so silly" eye roll, but seeing front offices bitch about JOs sitting around doing nothing when in reality, they are just waiting for a computer to open up is ridiculous.

 

[sevenhelmet]

A JO from my fleet tour had a theory about retention, and it basically boiled down to three things (for Pilots specifically, from the single seat VFA perspective):

1) Poor compensation relative to the civilian sector

For what it's worth, I never thought active-duty officer compensation was poor, particularly for O-3s or above, and from what I can tell, increasing compensation doesn't really seem to move the needle on retention. This may apply to retention in the lower ranks, but not so much for aircrew (my opinion, YMMV by community).

2) Poor duty locations

For sure. Living in locations that made my family sick while I deployed constantly was not fun, and I totally understand why people claim EFM at the drop of a hat to avoid Lemoore. I liked the community, hated the location. That valley is poison.

3) Lack of resources (NIPR laptops, personnel in terms of collateral duties, training devices both for simulators and live flight, etc)

Solid agreement here. NMCI has been hot garbage since it was rolled out. Now that there's a whole different system afloat, IT support is even worse. I don't know if it's gotten better in the past 4 years, but I doubt it. Conceptually, it seems as though the past 15+ years have seen an increase in the number of "efficiencies" and "lean practices" that lean heavily on the member, and take time and energy away from the mission. It's the "death by 1,000 cuts" that some guys talk about. When everything is getting just a tiny bit harder every year, in aggregate, it becomes unsustainable. Meanwhile every individual bureaucrat says "We're not asking that much more, it only takes 5-10 minutes of your time.", which makes the problem difficult to characterize and describe beyond "administrative creep" that can always be blamed on others, certainly not YOUR program, which is IMPORTANT, by God...

His argument was if you fix one of these problems then you will greatly improve retention. But when you force people to accept all three, coupled with the high ops-tempo of VFA squadrons when you’re home or away, it’s too much to ask for unless you are 100% sold on the Navy as a career.

I think the one-two punch would be adequate funding and resources for the training command (aircraft, operating budget, parts, and maintainers... the pilots will follow), and a concentrated, sustained effort to reduce the number of logins, acronyms, administrative roadblocks, and general PITA-ness that accompanies ANY job, but especially seems to accompany service on active duty (or Reserves... good God, it's gotten bad- 100% Zip Serve compliance, anyone?). Let's treat people like they're human beings, not walking administrative robots.

Bonus Points if they can figure out a way for pilots to stay current until leaving at 20. I bet you could increase retention that way too.

 

[robav8r]

This is when Naval Aviation began to auger in . . . .

. . . . I keed (to the OP) of course.

 

[Fallonflyr]

This is when Naval Aviation began to auger in . . . .

. . . . I keed of course.

Watching great dudes and future leaders get thrown under the bus to protect flag rank and above was one of my main factors for punching out at my 10 year mark.

 

[Uncle Fester]

For the Navy, I know lack of career flexibility is one reason very frequently given for dudes deciding to punch at MSR. Just about everyone I’ve ever heard speak about it - up to and including well into Flag Country - agrees that the very rigid career progression model for Line officers is artificial and dumb. It rewards how closely you adhere to the Golden Path, not how critical the job is or how well you do in those jobs, and rewards and penalizes officers for things that are entirely outside their control and have zilch to do with their performance or value, such as how many Observed competitive fitreps your timing and the CO’s timing give you.

Everybody agrees it’s dumb, nobody wants to change it. Usually because the people who could make changes to the system are the same ones who successfully promoted within that system…so, obviously, it promotes stellar performers such as themselves and doesn’t need fixing.

 

[navyterp67]

My thoughts for the VFA community come down to a combination of the following: poor locations (especially F-35), lack of manning, golden path, and OPTEMPO.

Lemoore is absolute trash and everyone knows that. When I was a first tour JO I was basically out of town every weekend. I don’t want to be within 3+ hours of a cool place… I want to live in one. The air quality here is also terrible and makes people sick. For those with families who don’t want orders here, I don’t blame you. As for the base, the infrastructure is a celebration of mediocrity.

The manning crisis is real. There are several single seat squadrons with 2-3 DHs. For now F-35 is healthy, but the writing is on the wall seeing how many FRS IPs leave after their shore tour. This is causing extensions back in the fleet, and those who stay have to work harder.

The golden path… my biggest issue with this is burnout and not getting a break. After 2x OIR deployments, work ups, and an aircraft transition in my JO tour, a demanding tour in Fallon for almost four years, and straight to DH immediately into a full workup then deployment… I still have another set of workups and deployment before my DH orders are up. After all of this, I’d like to still fly, maybe instruct, but also have some downtime. If there was a “chill” opportunity for DCMA or some disassociated tour flying C-whatevers somewhere nice, that would be awesome. But the message from PERS is [insert Pawn Stars meme] “best I can do is a non-flying joint tour pushing PowerPoints.” The on-track flying jobs that would be available mostly don’t work for my timing. It’s ridiculous. Another idea, maybe like AEDO, we could have some type of career path for SFTIs where you just stay in that world and actually use your specialty, instead of being Admin/Safety/MO/Skipper. In my opinion you should be able to do whatever the hell you want in your post-DH tour if your performance record up to that point is sound.

OPTEMPO… see the above paragraph. We’re burning out planes, ships, and people, and I saw it on this last deployment. And while IKE is catching the headlines, the rest of the fleet is sitting at max E, making half the salary of an airline guy or gal doing basically the same thing. Except they don’t have to deal with living on the boat and the asspain that brings, which could be its own separate thread.

In my opinion, money isn’t the issue. The real “one problem” is a combination of the four items above, leading to burnout for the people who stay. When they’re not doing the flying they used to, with increased admin responsibilities, and look at their friends on the outside and see the lives they’re living in better places with more time for family and hobbies, it makes them think “why the hell am I still doing this?”

 

[sevenhelmet]

In my opinion, money isn’t the issue. The real “one problem” is a combination of the four items above, leading to burnout for the people who stay.

You said it. 100%.

What scares me is people are working this hard, and there’s no spare capacity anywhere if something major happens. I see it in industry too- we’re stretched thin, and without much reserve capacity.

 

[robav8r]

You said it. 100%.

What scares me is people are working this hard, and there’s no spare capacity anywhere if something major happens. I see it in industry too- we’re stretched thin, and without much reserve capacity.

This is true for the entire military industrial complex. I wonder when servicing the interest on the national debt, a number that now exceeds our ENTIRE defense budget will be addressed . . . .

 

[Flash]

Solid agreement here. NMCI has been hot garbage since it was rolled out. Now that there's a whole different system afloat, IT support is even worse. I don't know if it's gotten better in the past 4 years, but I doubt it...a concentrated, sustained effort to reduce the number of logins, acronyms, administrative roadblocks, and general PITA-ness that accompanies ANY job, but especially seems to accompany service on active duty (or Reserves... good God, it's gotten bad- 100% Zip Serve compliance, anyone?).

The fact the Navy has not unfucked its IT mess over 20 years after the introduction of NMCI speaks volumes to me. I've often thought if senior leadership had to deal with the same issues as their sailors it would be fixed, and fast. But they've got aides and staff along with priority support to help them, so they don't and it is still a mess decades later.

As for the reserves, the fact Kelly Beamsley's site is still being updated and used well over 5 years after he retired is just plain...sad.