My Overall Primary Experience

[RoarkJr.]

The grade thing sucks. I know a hard charger who was getting 2’s in early contacts for his briefs and GK. Guy was a prior SOF dude with a crazy work ethic…just got burned. Him and his on wing partner tried to get something done about it but got shot down. I would be livid. They say not to worry about grades but imagine getting 2’s then hear about average studs getting 5’s either because their partner carries them or their IP just hooks it up. Lol.

 

[MGoBrew11]

So while the stress does continue to build as others have said, you will also get more used to it.

Primary was stressful, advanced was more stressful. I thought the FRS was easier than both of those. The expectations were higher but the IPs were more relaxed and everything was more spread out. And you’re not really expected to be a tactical wizard when you finish the FRS or anything. Just proficient at pushing buttons.

I think once you get to the fleet is when the stress really kicks in again, at least initially. That’s when all eyes are on you and you’re constantly being evaluated. The senior HACs and the DHs are seeing what you’re all about and whether or not they trust you as a 2P or will recommend you for HAC. But even then, it’s not like flight school where it’s a daily grind of memorizing a bunch of stuff for the next days discuss items. It’s a little more gradual but deeper level of knowledge required. Once you make HAC and Level III it’s all gravy baby. Show up, brief, fly. Call it a day.

Your HAC board btw though will probably be more stressful than anything you’ve ever experienced professionally. Just think about the hardest brief in primary and multiply that by a lot.

 

[insanebikerboy]

I didn’t realize how much we put the extra stress on ourselves until I had to go back to flight school when I switched over to the AF. Sure, I had the benefit of experience but going through the tanker course with brand new 2nd and 1st Lts and seeing how whacked out they were with stress made me realize they were doing it to themselves.

Looking back at almost two decades of flying, I’d say 75% of the stress I’ve felt in flying was self induced. That includes studying for flights, the actual flying, etc. The real stress I think comes from stuff we don’t or can’t plan for, I.e, the squall line out of nowhere, shitty combat ops, severe clear air turbulence, etc. The majority of the rest of flying is plannable and expected. That’s especially true during flight school as everything is practically scripted to the minute.

OP, good job on pushing through primary. Hopefully your time in wap wap land will go a lot smoother.

 

[Gatordev]

@papacarter I want to applaud you for keeping perspective and understanding that not everything Naval Aviation can be reduced to your on-wing experience. Even more so that you actually grew to bond with your on-wing afterwards. I'd offer that he may not have been quite as bad as you initially perceived and some of your initial reaction was just not knowing what to expect. Enjoy helo land!

I honestly thought we had evolved and eliminated the dick/screamer IP's. This alone is disappointing to hear - VT/HT CO's should be actively seeking out these kind of IP's for action. The SNA evals were usually valuable here. That kind of instruction should be seen as unsafe, counter productive, and a threat to force readiness.

I don't know that we truly know he was a "screamer," so I wouldn't be too disappointed. You of all people should know a stud's perceptions don't always match reality at the time. It's a different generation in flight school now, so one man's "screamer" may just be a strict, less-fun IP during my time as a stud. And he may have been a "cool" IP when you were a stud.

I only had one "screamer" when I was a stud who was an O-6 (I was at the end of that era, thankfully), but when I think back to it, he still wasn't throwing things at me and it was for an event that he never really flew (an RI-1 in the aircraft), so he was probably also frustrated at how inept I was. I'm not saying I enjoyed the experience, but he was also decently cordial in the brief and debrief.

The grade thing sucks. I know a hard charger who was getting 2’s in early contacts for his briefs and GK. Guy was a prior SOF dude with a crazy work ethic…just got burned. Him and his on wing partner tried to get something done about it but got shot down. I would be livid.

I'm sure everyone appreciated your communication of the situation as a new SNA and it helped guide the seasoned IPs to be better.

 

[ChuckMK23]

I don't know that we truly know he was a "screamer," so I wouldn't be too disappointed. You of all people should know a stud's perceptions don't always match reality at the time. It's a different generation in flight school know, so one man's "screamer" may just be a strict, less-fun IP during my time as a stud. And he may have been a "cool" IP when you were a stud.

You're right - good points.

 

[AllYourBass]

And you’re not really expected to be a tactical wizard when you finish the FRS or anything. Just proficient at pushing buttons.

YOU WANNA FIGHT OR SOMETHING

lol jk

 

[SynixMan]

The grade thing sucks. I know a hard charger who was getting 2’s in early contacts for his briefs and GK. Guy was a prior SOF dude with a crazy work ethic…just got burned. Him and his on wing partner tried to get something done about it but got shot down. I would be livid. They say not to worry about grades but imagine getting 2’s then hear about average studs getting 5’s either because their partner carries them or their IP just hooks it up. Lol.

While bitching about your instructors is a tale as old as Naval Aviation, I would keep these sort of thoughts to the Standby table and SNA bitch-sessions. Not specifically at you, but SNAs think they're anonymous online until aren't.

BT BT

For all the lurking SNAs, if you genuinely think you or someone else is being treated unfairly, talk to the Stan Officer. It's fairly easy to put an objective set of eyes/ears on an SNA and see if they're meeting the standard.

 

[RoarkJr.]

While bitching about your instructors is a tale as old as Naval Aviation, I would keep these sort of thoughts to the Standby table and SNA bitch-sessions. Not specifically at you, but SNAs think they're anonymous online until aren't.

BT BT

For all the lurking SNAs, if you genuinely think you or someone else is being treated unfairly, talk to the Stan Officer. It's fairly easy to put an objective set of eyes/ears on an SNA and see if they're meeting the standard.

Roger, noted. Should have been a DM if anything.

 

[FLGUY]

The grade thing sucks. I know a hard charger who was getting 2’s in early contacts for his briefs and GK. Guy was a prior SOF dude with a crazy work ethic…just got burned. Him and his on wing partner tried to get something done about it but got shot down. I would be livid. They say not to worry about grades but imagine getting 2’s then hear about average studs getting 5’s either because their partner carries them or their IP just hooks it up. Lol.

I think this is the most frustrating part for many studs. You get told “just work hard, and let the chips fall where they may, if you’re good then it will all work out”. What many people don’t realize is that mathematically, your performance in the first few blocks of contacts and instruments makes up the staggering majority of your NSS. And therefore, if you have a bad onwing who’s a “MIF Monster” or just doesn’t grade the same as the other IPs, the you’ll likely get an average at best NSS.

A hard charging stud who’s doing great, yet has a tough grading onwing will often times have a worse NSS than an average student with a Santa Claus onwing. Not all 4’s and 5’s are equal.

 

[Pags]

I think this is the most frustrating part for many studs. You get told “just work hard, and let the chips fall where they may, if you’re good then it will all work out”. What many people don’t realize is that mathematically, your performance in the first few blocks of contacts and instruments makes up the staggering majority of your NSS. And therefore, if you have a bad onwing who’s a “MIF Monster” or just doesn’t grade the same as the other IPs, the you’ll likely get an average at best NSS.

A hard charging stud who’s doing great, yet has a tough grading onwing will often times have a worse NSS than an average student with a Santa Claus onwing. Not all 4’s and 5’s are equal.

So for the current/prior IP crowd, how often does a "MIF monster" happen these days? Or is that just the perspective of SNAs and the reality is that the majority of the IPs know what's up and the MIF monster is truly an accurate measure of their performance? I remember thinking the same thing and thinking that I was flying the best I ever had and was studying as hard as I could. After two flying tours and plenty of time out of the cockpit I think that my scoring was probably accurate and that I was in no way god's gift to aviation. I was safe and could learn quickly but not at an above average level.

 

[ea6bflyr]

So for the current/prior IP crowd, how often does a "MIF monster" happen these days? Or is that just the perspective of SNAs and the reality is that the majority of the IPs know what's up and the MIF monster is truly an accurate measure of their performance? I remember thinking the same thing and thinking that I was flying the best I ever had and was studying as hard as I could. After two flying tours and plenty of time out of the cockpit I think that my scoring was probably accurate and that I was in no way god's gift to aviation. I was safe and could learn quickly but not at an above average level.

When I was a VT instructor, most of the MIF monsters were ether new instructors that really didn't know the grading criteria, or a lazy instructor. Our STAN folks were quick to point out those folks monthly, and provide remedial training for all.

 

[croakerfish]

So for the current/prior IP crowd, how often does a "MIF monster" happen these days? Or is that just the perspective of SNAs and the reality is that the majority of the IPs know what's up and the MIF monster is truly an accurate measure of their performance? I remember thinking the same thing and thinking that I was flying the best I ever had and was studying as hard as I could. After two flying tours and plenty of time out of the cockpit I think that my scoring was probably accurate and that I was in no way god's gift to aviation. I was safe and could learn quickly but not at an above average level.

This was something you could analyze in TIMS. In my squadron (HTs, maybe a different culture than a primary VT) I don’t think anyone had their grading habits critiqued by the front office or STAN. It would have to be pretty egregious or come up in a TRB or something to attract notice.
I do recall our STUCON clerk pulling up this report one shit-weather day and those of us sitting around the office had a good laugh guessing who our Santas and Grinches were. Even then, no one was actually that far from the mean in terms of grades assigned. Number of UNSATS and ready-room downs given was a different story however. Some guys had an itchy trigger finger and it showed.

 

[MIDNJAC]

Keep in mind the IPs are just people too, and they aren't (at least most aren't) actively trying to f*** you. I didn't initially know where the bar for passing an event was when I started instructing fleet level 2/3/4 candidates. I certainly didn't know where it was when I became a reservist FRS IP in a new community. I imagine going from a fleet aircraft to instructing in an orange and white is an even greater stretch. Couple that with the fact that the VT's are such a mixing bowl of different mindsets, experiences, and areas of perceived importance amongst the various backgrounds of IP. I don't envy the Stan O, I'll say that.

 

[Gatordev]

Couple that with the fact that the VT's are such a mixing bowl of different mindsets, experiences, and areas of perceived importance amongst the various backgrounds of IP.

I would imagine it hasn't changed, but during my time at VTs, while there was certainly different mindsets and experiences, I never saw any sense of one community/experience held over others. Generally everyone was just happy to be there and be able to fly every day. The weaker IPs were known by those that had been around for a bit. Studs talk to trusted IPs, and IPs fly with other IPs, so things don't go unnoticed (like incorrect procedures that students get told are correct). What I would see was far less, "that guy is a Sierra guy, so he doesn't know what he's talking about," and far more, "that guy is a knuckle-head, so take what he writes on his grade sheets with a grain of salt." (Not that it's said to students, but it's said amongst IPs).

 

[Python]

So for the current/prior IP crowd, how often does a "MIF monster" happen these days? Or is that just the perspective of SNAs and the reality is that the majority of the IPs know what's up and the MIF monster is truly an accurate measure of their performance? I remember thinking the same thing and thinking that I was flying the best I ever had and was studying as hard as I could. After two flying tours and plenty of time out of the cockpit I think that my scoring was probably accurate and that I was in no way god's gift to aviation. I was safe and could learn quickly but not at an above average level.

MIF monsters (as the term is defined in this thread) are definitely a thing. Certainly the exception, but a few in the cadre do exist. And it is unfortunate for the students.