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More angry JFK Ground Controllers
- Thread starter BigIron
- Start date
It sounds like the JFK controller was messing with AirChina knowing he was having a problem understanding. He shouldn't have included that clearance phrase "have they cleared you into the ramp?" within the question. Not necessarily threatening in that situation, but ask something like it around a runway or taxiway and it has accident/incident written all over it.
Pure Bull Shit.
That is a standard question asked by Ground controllers at every major airport using the exact same phraseology.
ICAO requires that the Air China pilots be fluent in English. If they aren't, they should not be flying here.
Another "informed" response by the uninformed....:icon_rage
?
HAL,
ATC is the equivelent to a minor for me, I've taken the required classes, studied and passed all the material the FAA has mandated us to know to begin training in OK City. I'd be going there if I wasn't contracted Navy. Before I posted I discussed it with a ground/local controller and he said the same thing. Including a clearance phrase without actually giving the clearance is a no no. It may be done, but shouldn't. This isn't life threatening obviously, so it probably happens more often and it's quicker. I am aware pilots must KNOW ATC lingo in english, but that doesn't mean they understand misleading questions. This is an unlikely scenario, but what if ground/local/CD was to ask the pilot something along the lines that include "clear for takeoff". It seems ridiculous, but it's been done and the pilot takes off, that's why we have order 7110.65 from the FAA.
What happens in textbooks and real life are sometimes different, but I have to agree with HAL what transpired was well within the rules. The JFK controllers are not trainees and they don't have time for missed instructions, aircraft wandering about, and other related problems. They are New Yorkers too, and hence a little of the attitude. I like it actually.
BTW, HAL stands for Hawaiian Airlines Pilot, so he knows what is going on as he has flown heavies in the commercial world.
Ground doesn't monitor the ramp frequency, so the ground controller doesn't know if a gate is open or not. If the gate isn't open, the ground controller has got to move the plane elsewhere, or have it hold position. The ground guy asked a question. "have you been cleared into the ramp yet?" I am not sure how else he would have phrased it. The Air China apparently did have an open gate (probably found out on his Company's base frequency). The ground controller owns the Air China, until it turns into the gate area, then ramp control has them. Commercial guys, please re-educate if I have misinformed.
As aircraft commanders, whether in the commercial world or military aviation, the onus is on us to make sure we both have and understand the appropriate clearances. If there is ambiguity, the pilot must ask for clarification, especially when operating in foreign airports. Talk about non-standard stuff when you leave the good ole USA.
There's a check and balance between pilot and ATC, however mistakes still happen.
Imagine that! Chinese pilots not having an Fing clue what's going on because they can't speaka any engalish.
What BigIron said.
If you pull into the ramp without clearance from Ramp Control, you can cause as many problems as if you didn't follow your taxi clearance from the Ground controler. I include ground collisions in this.
And you can get the same FAA violation too.
If you don't understand the clearance or what was said, you stop and ask questions. There is no assuming.
If you pull into the ramp without clearance from Ramp Control, you can cause as many problems as if you didn't follow your taxi clearance from the Ground controler. I include ground collisions in this.
And you can get the same FAA violation too.
If you don't understand the clearance or what was said, you stop and ask questions. There is no assuming.
Sorry Big Iron, I didn't realize it was HAL that said my post was bull shit and I was misinformed. I was clarifying my position and the backing I have from an Air Traffic Controllers POV. I'm not trying to ruffle any of your feathers. I realize HAL's name and his career, I've paid attention to many of his posts and I was respectfully disagreeing with him. My point is that ambiguity in lingo is a bad thing, no matter who's fault it is. The job of the controller is to minimize it as much as possible. My first post simply pointed out that after this controller recognized this guy had problems understanding, he made things more difficult by asking a question in an ambiguous way and then asking it again the exact way. If that guy rolls and collides with another aircraft, whose fault is it? Does it matter? There was still a breakdown in communication. It doesn't matter how things "usually are done", it's how they are supposed to be done. Our textbooks are the operating procedures. We aren't learning theory. It's cut and dry, do this, don't do that, direct from the FAA. What individual controllers do once fully certified and on there own is one thing, but when an accident/incident occurs, you're judged by the tape and how you did your job based on what the manual says to the T.
That's correct BigIron, ground doesn't control the ramp so I understand the NEED for the question and the answer he needed. If he didn't get it then he'd have to be sent to the penalty box to wait for things to clear. Perhaps it'd be best asked, AirChina do you have a gate available? AirChina is your ramp clear? We take for granted intonation and word emphasis in English here in America, but a Chinese person that knows ATC communication but little else english will obviously have difficulties, as seen here. If that controller wants to say that to an American pilot fine, that works and it's very likely he'll understand it. Otherwise, it can be misleading, and that was the intent of my post.
v/r,
That's correct BigIron, ground doesn't control the ramp so I understand the NEED for the question and the answer he needed. If he didn't get it then he'd have to be sent to the penalty box to wait for things to clear. Perhaps it'd be best asked, AirChina do you have a gate available? AirChina is your ramp clear? We take for granted intonation and word emphasis in English here in America, but a Chinese person that knows ATC communication but little else english will obviously have difficulties, as seen here. If that controller wants to say that to an American pilot fine, that works and it's very likely he'll understand it. Otherwise, it can be misleading, and that was the intent of my post.
v/r,
Never apologize unless you have too. No need in this case. This is what a forum is all about.
I think the bottom line here is a term aviators like to call "Adaptability/Flexibility." When dealing with people in aviation (controllers, other pilots, trainees) you never know what you are going to get. Rules and standardization tell you what you should expect, but sometimes the results are abbreviated, or half assed, etc, but still technically correct. There is a lot of technique out there, and folks apply the rules as they should, but differently than you might expect. Again, if there is ambiguity, ask....even if the controller flames you. If they get pissed, then so be it. HAL posted a link not too long ago of an open mic on ATC. It was excellent.
Anyways, IMHO, I do not get the impression this particular controller had it out for the Air China pilots. He made several attempts to clarify things and the pilots were obviously on their own program which is unsafe. Stress builds as things get unsafe. Stress builds as he is dealing with these out of town pilots while knowing he has a line of planes to sequence to the gates.
Anyways, my thoughts. All is well.
What amazes me are the comments under the video, where everyone is assigning blame. This is simply a case of poor communication that thankfully resulted in nothing more than a humorous YouTube presentation.
This exchange, and others like it, are great case study material (emphasizing clear communication, standard phraseology, reading back of instructions, etc.)
This exchange, and others like it, are great case study material (emphasizing clear communication, standard phraseology, reading back of instructions, etc.)
Must be that time of the month where the wannabes feel like pissing off the saltier individuals by telling them "how it is". I don't doubt your ATC training, but keep in mind that's all you have. Training. I'd suggest to stop arguing with people who have wings. They have something that truly means something. Experience.