Math Through The Ages

[eddie]

I learned my high school did away with class ranking so as not to hurt the self-esteem of the students. WTF? They also don't have a Valedictorian either. Wow, those kids are SET for failure.

I don't know what kind of school you went to, but there are a lot of private / charters / magnets that are doing away with them as a tactical consideration for college admissions. All of the kids have similar GPAs ("high") and are fairly motivated and going to college anyways. A 3.0 and, "bottom of your class" don't usually add up; they are poor reflections of the other in the grand scheme.

It's the same reason those schools are cutting their AP programs, teaching everyone at a high-ish level, and then offering a few review sessions near the end of the year for anyone who wants to gear up for the AP test on their own.

Granted, these are ususally situations where the student populace was already motivated in the first place, but honestly, if all you needed was petty things like class rank and desire to be valedictorian to get you to read good, this problem wouldn't be nearly as big and complicated as it is.

 

[skim]

Do you mean least subjective? That's why I've always loved Math... you can't fake it.

Yeah, thats what I meant. I began to appreciate math later in life (thanks to the wife) because growing up, my parents, teachers and councelors didn't really push it. Once I transferred, I was planning on taking math classes, took pre-algebra (Im poli-sci) and got a C. I decided to not continue since it was bringing down my gpa and didn't think about taking it as a non-counting class (I forget the term).

 

[H20man]

My dad is in his second year teaching regular Algebra 2 in HS. He sees a wide variety of kids come through, of those who just dont care, and would rather do drugs during the lunch period, the kids who havent learned basic concepts from previous math classes and dont care, and those who genuinely try.

His first year he would help those kids on the bottom end of the spectrum who did not want to be there at all, helping to brute force their way through. It was beyond time consuming, this year he comes in at 0630 and leaves at 1830-1930, he stays for the kids that want to try and learn.

Having helped grade his tests, it is rather scary the basic concepts which are not understood by the students.

In this realm it is a two way street with the teacher and student, my dad is willing to help these kids out and those willing to seek out help he will go to lengths to make sure they understand, other teachers he work with come in at the last minute and leave as soon as class is over.

It is also student's attitudes, which after talking to some former teachers at my HS it has just gotten worse over the years. I was in uniform for a presentation to the career department and went over to see an old teacher and a kid asked if i was in a costume.....

Another example is the benchmark. My dad has been teaching two years and his students have been scoring higher on the benchmark than a teacher who has been at it for 25 years.

The Administration.... a big problem. It is the design course structure which is really putting the handcuffs on teachers. They are having to teach 2 concepts in one class period, which leaves little time to go over questions from the previous lesson, as well as answer questions related to the lesson being taught, and also having to pick up the slack for concepts not taught to the students previously.

Also having the schools worry about the benchmarks leaves the teachers in a rut of to teach the concepts or to teach the benchmark.

And finally... an email was sent at the end of the last school year from the admin saying that all teachers will pass all ESL students no matter what their grade.

As skim said, you can have bad and good teachers, but it really comes down to the students and the admin. Students not caring, but teachers willing to help, and the admin putting handcuffs on the ability of teachers to use class time effectively.

 

[MasterBates]

I learned my high school did away with class ranking so as not to hurt the self-esteem of the students. WTF? They also don't have a Valedictorian either. Wow, those kids are SET for failure.

Wow.. And you went to the "nice/good" school IIRC.

As sad as it is, I received a better education at the Vo-Tech HS in Rochester than at Carver High.

School took no bull, you mess up, you went back to your original school. And being a Vokie school, they had (and still have) more leeway with teaching. They pushed those that wanted to do more, put the slackers in their own class with a retired Marine (who used brute force to get what they needed into their skulls) and those that were not that bright, but tried well, they were put in a "tech-prep" track that while it may not have set them up for being Engineer, it laid a solid foundation for them to work in skilled trades.

 

[eddie]

School took no bull, you mess up, you went back to your original school. And being a Vokie school, they had (and still have) more leeway with teaching. They pushed those that wanted to do more, put the slackers in their own class with a retired Marine (who used brute force to get what they needed into their skulls) and those that were not that bright, but tried well, they were put in a "tech-prep" track that while it may not have set them up for being Engineer, it laid a solid foundation for them to work in skilled trades.

Honestly, that sounds like pretty good system that could do a lot of good in A LOT of places and cases.

 

[Fly Navy]

First off Eddie, great avatar.

I don't know what kind of school you went to, but there are a lot of private / charters / magnets that are doing away with them as a tactical consideration for college admissions.

I went to a very good public school, at least it was very good at the time I was at it. Lots of AP classes, very high college enrollment, Ivy league acceptances, etc.

You are correct, the current state of college admissions to good schools is part of the problem. In order to get into the high-tier schools, you need to overload a student with so much activities, studies, etc. Then again, it's also a bi-product of the fact that EVERYONE is going to college nowadays.

All of the kids have similar GPAs ("high") and are fairly motivated and going to college anyways. A 3.0 and, "bottom of your class" don't usually add up; they are poor reflections of the other in the grand scheme.

A 3.0 GPA in most cases will not get you into a competitive school, with good reason. It's a B average.

Granted, these are ususally situations where the student populace was already motivated in the first place, but honestly, if all you needed was petty things like class rank and desire to be valedictorian to get you to read good, this problem wouldn't be nearly as big and complicated as it is.

You're not understanding the deeper "incentive" of a performance based system. If you don't teach children early on that competitiveness is good, that TRYING to be number 1 (maybe they won't be number 1, but the trying part is critical), that doing well is good and doing poorly is less than desired, they won't survive in the real world. The idea of self-esteem has created so many issues with the current crop of parents. You don't GIVE self-esteem to someone, they EARN it, and they earn it by performing and seeing the results of their actions as good. Getting rid of a performance based system in order to coddle those that do NOT perform, is a flawed idea. Get what I'm saying?

 

[eddie]

A 3.0 GPA in most cases will not get you into a competitive school, with good reason. It's a B average.

But does it really corrleate with "top 85%" of a class? No. That's all I mean. It's an accurate measure. Standing alone, it's not that honest AND a strike against you.

It's a fringe case as far as the grand scheme of education in this country is considered, but was highly applicable in my own experience.

You're not understanding the deeper "incentive" of a performance based system. [...] Getting rid of a performance based system in order to coddle those that do NOT perform, is a flawed idea. Get what I'm saying?

I think I am understanding, and I agree. What I was trying to say was, outside of the aforementioned exceptions, a district getting rid of it's class rankings is more symptom than root cause.