Marine% that becomes a jet .vs. helo pilot at UPT

[WJ Elliott]

For any phase-1 UPT Marine aviators that are currently in training or just graduated from phase-1 training I was wondering how many in your class want to be fighter pilots versus how many want to be helicoptor pilots.

I was in San Diego last year and got to talk to my OSO face to face and he told me it was about half the time he was in UPT school in Pensacola. But from this website it looks like alot of future marines want to fly the F-18 Hornet in the jets side and the Cobra in the helos side.

 

[EA-6B1]

uhh... UPT? as in undergraduate pilot training? The Marines don't do that.

 

[WJ Elliott]

I got a little mixed up with the other flight programs. For the Marines I meant primary school. If there is anybody out there that is in primary school or that has a clue on what the selection percentages are in primary for helo, jet, or prop please let me know. I would like a general idea of what to expect currently with the exception of the needs of the Marines.

 

[chiplee]

I guess you're asking what guys want, and what guys tend to get. I don't have any official stats, but in my TBS class there were about 40 guys with air contracts. Of those about 8 attrited from various phases of training, even from the RAG, 8 got jets, 2 got props and the rest got Helos. I only knew 2 guys out of the 40 who actually said they wanted helos, and of the ones who verbalized it, most wanted hornets. Many, myself included eventually, were very happy to be going to flight school, and came to the realization that the wings are just as bright on your chest no matter what you fly. I used to be very vocal about wanting hornets. When I realized I was setting myself up for disappointment, I got alot more open to the idea of flying helos. Now I regret not having any helo experience. When you start you should hear alot of guys say I'll fly whatever the Marine Corps needs me to fly, or as much airplane as they'll let me fly, or something to that effect. It's as much about timing and the needs of the Marine Corps as it is about how well you do and what you want. So deciding to be a Hornet pilot before primary is risky business, and there are countless helo pilots who wanted jets who will tell you they've had a blast. You really can't go wrong. But yeah, the hornet rocks. I've come to absolutely love it. Some of you younger guys can start thinking about the JSF soon too. That's going to be an amazing airplane.

stay motivated

 

[E5B]

I'll tell you this, Mach3, out of the 11 Marines in my API class, only 2 of us want helo's (myself included) and we both want 53's, so I hope we don't end up winging together. The other nine all want the Hornet, and one guy, even said he'll DOR if he doesn't select Jets. This is also the same guy that has a huge attitude problem and even bigger ego. Is this typical for all acadamy grads?


Chiplee, what caused someone to wash out of the RAG? Congrats on all your training!!




Beetle

 

[BigWorm]

Chiplee – is it true that you take the prison pose before launching off a carrier? Just kidding…that seems to be the first comment out of other-than-hornet-driver’s mouth. Now that I think about it, I have never actually heard anyone that has been in a Hornet talk about it. When I hear someone actually speak in objective terms, the word is that it is an easy aircraft to fly, but hard to operate?? I’ve been spending way too much time thinking about how I am going to fill out the selection card – right now I am split down the middle between Helos and Jets. Just trying to figure out how to weigh differences between communities, mission, culture, etc.
As I was telling E5B, the plan is to take what I get, and when people ask if it was my first choice (even if it wasn’t) to tell them that I gamed the game right, and that “it” was what I really wanted. Whatever happens, I am looking forward to it. I would prefer not to fly a C-130 full of rubber body bags out of Hong Kong, but as long as I stay out of the ground supply shop…things will be good.
I can only imagine the feeling that you must have finishing training. Congrats! If you get a chance, I would like to hear “war” stories.

 

[chiplee]

Thanks gents, and you're right it's nice to have finished but you never really "finish." You just stop training with an instructor in the back. Most of the Hornet RAG is solo anyway. Hell your 5th flight is a solo. I don't know yet if I'll fly straights or T-birds but I want to go to a single seat boat squadron. If I had to give just one bit of advice and leave it at that, I'd have to say whatever you do have fun in the training command. Work hard and play hard but don't get in trouble with alcohol or they'll make and example of you. The guy that attrited from the RAG had backed himself into a corner before he got here. For Marines you are either good enough to tell them you want Hornets or you aren't good enough to get Harriers so you can only get Hornets. that's called the harrier cut and it screws alot of guys. Most of them come to love the Harrier though. So this individual was simply unfortunate. He was able to manage Jet grades in primary where preperation is everything and execution is expected to be weak at times. Then when he got to Kingsville he struggled but managed to fly under the attrition radar. And when he tried to fly the Hornet he honestly just didn't have the stick and rudder skills. He studied harder than anyone I know because he knew he had to be good in the brief to get the auto upgrade in the debrief. Some times the system isn't perfect and they put a guy in the wrong pipeline. A primary skipper's goal should be to get guys in the right pipeline so they make it all the way to the fleet. The Navy wasted millions on this guy. He is a great guy and there is no shame in attriting for the reasons he attrited. You've heard right about the Hornet. It's very very easy to fly and very hard to employ tactically. It's designed with the single seat fighter pilot in mind so many of the pilot tasks that seem so involved in the T-34 or T-45A become so easy you could get bored in the hornet. It's got so much gucci schit you just can't help but love it. The prison position? lol, whoever said that is clearly jealous. Your first one had better be head back left hand on the throttles, and right hand on the towel rack. After you know how violent it's going to be you can try to keep your head forward and see if you can react fast enough to not get it slammed back into the headrest. I was getting about 165kts of endspeed this weekend when I did my initial qual in the Hornet, which is right around a normal nose wheel liftoff speed for a field takeoff. 0 to 165 takes about 3 seconds so you feel like your guts might explode to be quite honest. It's WAY more intense than it was back in the T-45, which was also quite fun. Guys you are truly wasting your time if you spend too long thinking about selection. I know it's hard not to worry, but it's just not really up to you, and I've heard nothing but good things from every friend I have in other communities. Tell your friends and family that you want jets sure but tell them the selection process in the navy revolves around the needs of the Navy more than anything. You do want to tell people what you want in primary though. Don't be afraid to say "I want Jets" to your onwing even if he was a CH-46 pilot and you're afraid he'll think less of you or something dumb like that. You might be one of many who've told him that but in general people want you to get your first choice and can't help if they don't know what it is. Amoung friends though, you really don't want to be the guy that says he'll DOR if he doesn't get jets, that's just silly and word will get around. I've heard the C-130 is the best kept secret in the Marine Corps as far as duty station and flight time goes. CH-46 guys say it was by the grace of God that they selected them. I've even known one Hornet guy who just absolutely hated his job. There's no good answer other than be happy if you're getting by, be thrilled if you're doing well but never gloat, and be content that you've chosen and noble and rewarding career path. You have nothing to worry about but doing your best as the system cannot be gamed. There is a true awakening ahead of you and you'll soon come to love the level of proficiency you're training yourself to in the Navy/Marine Corps. Especially if you have civilian time, you'll realize why they say we're the best pilots in the world, and you'll be overwhelmed with pride and contentment but you'll act as though it's no big deal when you go back home to see friends who are doing the same old nothing. You won't believe they pay you after a while, at least I don't.

stay motivated

 

[william]

Chiplee,
That is by far the best email I have read on this site. I wish everybody reads it. You have hit the nail on head about Primary and Selection. I recently selected Helos (not my first choice) and will be moving to Pensacola. I look forward to it as I know everybody ultimately will love what they fly.

 

[chiplee]

Well that's mighty nice of you william. Thanks, and congrats on your successful completion of primary. I'll be moving soon as well, to Beaufort, SC. There is supposed to be some great training coming up soon with my new squadron down there so I want to hurry up and check in so I can get in on that action. It should be fun.

stay motivated

 

[Rob_ERAU]

Hey Guys,
I know this is a little off subject but, I was curious, how many Harrier slots are usually open? My family lives in Yuma, AZ and everytime I go back home I see those impressive jets flying around. To tell you the truth, my whole life all I ever wanted to fly was the Harrier, but I think I would be happy just to be an officer/military pilot no matter what airplane was given to me. Great insight on this subject though, I was always wondering that jet/helo percentage.

Robby Volack

 

[E5B]

I heard a crazy rumor that the Yuma Harrier squadrons are moving to Miramar. Chip, have you heard anything like this?

Beetle

 

[Rob_ERAU]

E5B,
A really good friend of mine who is a F/18 NFO in the Marines and is a MAWTS Instructor told me that, Miramar is bring more and more planes to Yuma, so really it is the other way around from what you heard. Miramar will start moving to Yuma sooner or later. Goldwater bombing range is a very important to the Marine squadrons around the West coast and MAWTS training is a big part of Yuma. So I guess they figure Yuma should be the area where most west coast Marine squadrons should be based. The news is not new to Yuma or Miramar. This subject is hot on the table in the Yuma city councel they want more Marines in Yuma and are pressing for the military to make the switch.

Robby Volack

 

[chiplee]

I haven't heard much of anything about moving to Yuma, but I do know that the Marine Corps will eventually have to get rid of Mirimar for the same reason the Navy did. noise and airspace

thanks hornetdrvr, Where are you by the way?

stay motivated

 

[chiplee]

noted, and sincerely appreciated. can't wait to meet you.

stay motivated

 

[BigWorm]

Chiplee, thanks for the advice.
Attitude seems to be everything hear…The majority of people seem to be, “ya I want Hornets, and know that I am most likely going to get Helos” then under their breath you can hear the “well most people are going to get Helos…but not me, cause I am that good”
So far flight school scares the sh!t out of me, attrition looming every day. After but just a few weeks into API, people are already rolling back, I don’t know if I just have the attrition class or what. The biggest advantage I had in preparation for this was failing calculus big time in college…not just failing, but being perhaps the worst in the class, and I wasn’t slacking either. That taught me a lot of lessons as far as how to study smarter vs. harder, and also humbles you a bit, where ya know that you are human…not one of these Academy engineering superheroes.
Right now, it sounds like the best approach to take is to just shut up and learn the material, and then work with your instructor to see what airframe will fit you the best. Beyond the “Jet Dream,” I liked the way that you phrased it about being matched up appropriately. The story about attrition from the RAG is my worst nightmare.
This leads to my final question, which is when you get to the point where you fill out your selection card is there anyway to tell if you are going to be in similar shoes as the RAG attrite. You have your NSS score and all, but does that translate into performance down the jet pipeline.
Also, do you have any idea what happened with him?