Lt. Col. Allen West

[NeoCortex]

Ladies and Gentlemen,
I"m not sure if you have heard, or if you agree with what has happened to Lt. Col West, but I would like to hear everyone's opinion on it. I agree that he did not follow the Geneva Convention for interogation, but he got the job done, and saved American lives. What is everyone's opinions?

Ben

 

[slasher]

He was hung out to dry, at a time when we need his breed the most. The politics are ****, but unfortunately a reality. Hopefully this won't deter other officers out there from doing the right thing (saving lives) for fear of retribution (losing a career) because they hurt someone's feelings.

 

[wink]

LCol West knew what he was doing. He didn't fear retribution. He knew there would be consequences and carried on. I am sure he thinks it was worth it and would do it again. Charges must be addressed. They must! What to look for is how they are handled. It looks like he will get NJP and I bet just a letter in his record. Don't be surprised if he is still around for a couple years. And when he does retire he will be a Fox News contributor.

 

[kimphil]

When you're shot down and captured, and the enemy takes liberty to pistol whip you, torture or castrate you because the enemy is trying to do the "right thing" you may gain an appreciation for the Geneva Convention. We don't follow the Geneva Convention because it's the right thing to do, we follow it because we hope that the enemy (present or future) reciprocates the treatment we show (or should show) our prisoners.

 

[NeoCortex]

I understand what kimphil is saying, bu the problem is that our enemies don't follow the Geneva convention, they are Terrorist!!

Wink,
LtCol West is retiring. and has a fine of $5,000

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/12/12/sprj.nirq.west.ruling/index.html

But here is a few quotes from the article

""I know the method I used was not right, but I wanted to take care of my soldiers," West testified to a military courtroom of observers and some teary-eyed troops formerly under his command.

Asked if he would have act differently if under similar circumstances again, West testified, "If it's about the lives of my soldiers at stake, I'd go through hell with a gasoline can."

After nearly 20 years of military service, West plans to move his family from Texas to Florida, where he said he hopes to start a new life. "

 

[riley]

kimphil, no offense - but that is just plain dumb. When, in the history of the world, has an adversary of the United States ever treated our POWs correctly (according to the Geneva Convention) - Not in WWII, not in Korea, not in Vietnam, not in Desert Storm, not in Iraqi freedom - NOT EVER! So, following this trend, what would make the US think that our POWs in future conflicts would be treated any differently?

We follow the Geneva Convention because we are not like the bad guys we fight - we have honor and integrity - they have fanatical hatred and animosity. This is what separates us from the krauts and Japs in WWII, the communist pinko bastards during the Cold War, and, most recently, the "islamic fundamentalists."

Just my own opinion.

On a side note - too many people in this country are so worried about stepping on other people's toes that they end up tripping over their own feet.

By the way, wink, that foxnews comment was pretty funny...

 

[kimphil]

Riley, how about the Germans during WWII?

And NeoCortex, don't buy into the rhetoric, most of the enemies in Iraq are technically "insurgents" not terrorists.

Also, when the enemy doesn't follow the Geneva Convention, we have the moral authority to prosecute violators as war criminals (remember those Japanese you mentioned--most of them were hanged after the War for their treatment of POWs). If we don't follow those rules, then our credibility to pursue and prosecute war criminals from other countries is zero.

 

[TNWhiskey]

The Geneva convention has a lot of good stuff in it...however, I agree with Riley...also, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Geneva convention applies to uniformed conflict...the guys we are fighting are waging a cowards war and have taken off their uniforms and opted to play hide and seek in the civilian world...Therefore, if there is no visible enemy; an enemy that will intentionally kill civilians, and an enemy that declares they want to kill every American, Jew, and Christian, LtCol West did the absolute RIGHT thing. Was the guy tortured? Was the guy drugged? No, he was roughed up a bit and had a weapon discharged into a clearing barrel near him. It's not like he was forced to play Russian roulette. If you remember one of the news analysts, a former Navy or AF pilot shot down in the 1st Gulf War had his eardrums blown out by the intentional discharge of weapon by his head. Certainly, we have to be better than the enemy, i.e. not put them in wood chippers or boiling oil, but the enemy must know we aren't going to monkey around when it comes to the safety of our men and women.

 

[TNWhiskey]

To add something.

If Col West had jumped on a hand grenade to save his men, everyone would call him a hero...So why is it that when he jumps on a political hand grenade and is willing to risk his career to save his men people call him a brutalist, etc. I say pin a medal on him he's a hero...IF they burn him to save face, i.e. discharge him, fine, but he deserves his pension and an honorary discharge.

 

[riley]

"If we don't follow those rules, then our credibility to pursue and prosecute war criminals from other countries is zero."

Good point..

TNWhiskey,

Literal hand grenade = death.
metaphorical hand grenade = PC bull$h1t

Either one is ugly.

People call him a brutalist for the same reason they complain about the treatment of detainees at Gitmo. They preach tolerance of everything they agree with and are intolerant of anything else.

 

[wink]

You haven't been listening TNWhiskey. The only people calling West a brutalist are the hate America first types that think the President is a War Criminal. America at large understands what happened here. It seems West was treated pretty fairly by the Army under the circumstances. He wasn't drummed out and I bet he could have even had a chance at O-6. Fact is, he now has a greater future on the outside. That is why he is retiring. I wasn't joking about the Fox News job. Heck, expect a book within the year and a round of Sunday news programs after the holidays. Good for him. He will do better and not get shot at. He will do his country a service, as well, by telling his story.

 

[TNWhiskey]

So are you classifying most democrats as hate American first types then? I think you're painting with a broad brush. Either way West got off...to the victor go the spoils.

 

[slasher]

Kimphil, you should wait until you've actually SERVED in the military before you start preaching to me about the Geneva Convention.

When your very life depends on the decisions of others, then maybe you will come to appreciate self-preservation (and more importantly, those of your brothers and men under you).

But other than your somewhat misguided, idealistic little soul, I agree with everything else said here. West knew the consequences, and accepted them. I simply hope it doesn't deter others from doing the same thing.

As West himself said; "If it's about the lives of my soldiers at stake, I'd go through hell with a gasoline can."

 

[BigWorm]

I’m going to back kimphil on this one. There is nothing heroic about beating information out of someone. There are moral guidelines that the U.S. follows – why would anyone surrender to us if we had the reputation of brutality. Yet, think the punishment was appropriate – you can’t have a zero defects mentality. If he was hung out to dry on this, it would stifle boldness. To win wars, leaders have to have a penchant of boldness. In this case, he was just a little too audacious, and was counseled because of it.
No one is taking his retirement, or his pension away, he’ll be just fine.

 

[kimphil]

Slasher, I don't need to have served to understand the moral dilemma this Lt. Col West was placed in. We're not talking F/A-18s here--serving isn't going to confer specific wisdom that a civilian wouldn't have here.