Low Flying B-52

[Schnugg]

Barnard, I know far too many of the "dead guys" you refer to participate in this thread.

Gentlemen, please continue the discourse. I'll show myself out.

 

[Pugs]

Uhhhhh .... ACTUALLY ..... "WAS" would be the correct tense of the verb.
"The Rule" (p.s., there ain't any rule) is what will get future guys killed. You learn from history. Yours and others .....

Well said A-4's. Folks of my generation will likely remember the first MIR I recall to go out of community to all of Naval Air involving the F-16N at Idaho Falls. Lots of lessons there, the clearest of which is some folks don't belong in a/c. Sometimes it's just because of crap going on in their life and given some time to resolve will be fine and for some it's "how the heck did that guy get here".

Clearly, and this MIR brought it forward, NOT talking about it does no service to anyone and it's our responsibility to make sure the decision makers know it. The interesting part about the "Darker Shade of Blue" is that the decision makers knew it and did nothing about it

 

[MIDNJAC]

After reading the report by Major Kern, the one statement which really blew my mind was the one attributed to Major Don Thompson:


After reading this, the questions that came to my mind were:

1. was Lt Col Holland serious when he made this comment to Maj Thompson?

• how could a B-52 safely perform this maneuver at any altitude?

• If Lt Col was serious what made him think he could pull it off?

If "Tex" Johnston did it in a B707, then I would imagine the closely-based design of the B-52 could also probably handle it....a "barrell" roll is correctly executed at 1 G (+/- some deviation due to pilot proficiency and form). This should not exceed the design limit load for any aircraft, and the limiting factor in any case would be the pilot's ability to keep the a/c from exceeding the critical AoA during the maneuver. Oh yeah, if you have never seen this

 

[mules83]

I had a good friend roll a ERAU Seminole (two piston engine trainer) with 3 other people in it. He was the CFI and was with his student/friends on a night xcountry. ERAU did not find out about this until he over G'ed the school's aerobatic trainer doing illegal maneuvers a couple of months later. I would have turned him in instantly if I knew about the roll. He endangered those three other lives (who are all good friends too) and every person who flew that a/c after him (due to maintenance not being done for months to see if any damaged occurred). I have lost all respect for him now.

 

[Pugs]

Was routine for the VT-10/86 contract pilots to roll the T-47A at the end of the SID at NPA. Smooth, 1 g, no problem. Heck, if you can run an intercept for the RIO's pulling G's and bounce along on a mountain radar nav for three hours at 500 feet it'll roll just fine.

 

[A4sForever]

If "Tex" Johnston did it in a B707

Good catch, Junior.

Check it: http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photoga...707%20Roll.mpg

Check it also: Lady Jesse thread ... it somehow ended up there a long time ago.

 

[AllAmerican75]

While the B-47 and the 707 could roll(just watch the film if you don't believe me) I believe there were certain structural limitations with the B-52 that prevent it from rolling, due to the sheer size of it.

 

[MIDNJAC]

I had a good friend roll a ERAU Seminole (two piston engine trainer) with 3 other people in it. He was the CFI and was with his student/friends on a night xcountry. ERAU did not find out about this until he over G'ed the school's aerobatic trainer doing illegal maneuvers a couple of months later. I would have turned him in instantly if I knew about the roll. He endangered those three other lives (who are all good friends too) and every person who flew that a/c after him (due to maintenance not being done for months to see if any damaged occurred). I have lost all respect for him now.

An old flight school friend of my dad's (and a former F9F pilot) took me up when I was younger and ended up performing a barrell roll in the Beech E35 Bonanza that we were in........perfectly executed, and I never felt in danger. Still, it was in violation of FAR 91.307, and I doubt my dad would have been too excited about it had he known......there are reasons for regulations, as I'm sure everyone who has spent any time flying knows....had this guy been an inexperienced pilot attempting to operate outside of his own limits, he could have easily ruined our day given the altitude we were at (around 2000 AGL)

 

[mules83]

But, my friend didn't know what he was doing, in an airplane being used like the village bicycle, and didn't tell anybody about it to do a maint. check, etc.

thats what pissed me off the most

 

[MIDNJAC]

A Bonanza is perfectly capable of mild aerobatics. What do you think a T-34 is? Same wing, gear, etc. About the only FAR I can think of that was violated was not having chutes. Unless you were within 4nm of a Victor route, over populated area, below 1500', etc. etc. etc.

I was referring to the parachute req's (maybe I got the Reg # wrong).....and yes, it is definitely capable of aerobatics. Just validating Mules' point, and the fact that showing off when you don't have the skills to back yourself up is not a good thing. I'm not flying government a/c yet (fingers crossed), but whenever I take a passenger up in a civilian a/c and I get the urge to show off/do something risky, there are about a dozen different stories (just like the this B-52 mishap) that usually make me change my mind.....ORM anyone?

 

[AllAmerican75]

That was Tex Johnson that rolled the 707, infront of thousands I might add. LtCol Holland was no Tex Johnson... Tex knew what he was doing...

I understand that, but I was also referring to info regarding the fact that many pilots transitioning into the -52 from the -47, thought about rolling it but had an engineer tell them that it wasn't possible because of structural limitations due to its size and having to do with overstressing the airframe or wing. Maybe it's just scuttlebutt, maybe not, just throwing out the related information that I have.

 

[FlyinSpy]

I'm not buying it. The B-52 seems to have some very significant nose-down trim that would put it in the drink shortly after clearing the bow.

I hate (and I mean really *hate*) having to correct myself, but here's a b1tchin' WMV of a BUFF with full-flaps at takeoff showing some wicked nose-down trim....

http://webpages.charter.net/gdawson/B52FullFlapTakeoff.wmv

I still think the second pic looks fake....

(I wouldn't be a real spy if I couldn't retract the occasional statement!)

 

[HeyJoe]

Aileron vs Barrel Roll

While the B-47 and the 707 could roll(just watch the film if you don't believe me) I believe there were certain structural limitations with the B-52 that prevent it from rolling, due to the sheer size of it.

On 7 August 1955, Boeing Test Pilot Alvin M. "Tex" Johnston amazed the crowd attending the Seafair Gold Cup hydroplane race on Lake Washington in Seattle by barrel rolling the prototype Boeing 707. Johnston performed a barrel-roll but some refer to it as an aileron roll in which a plane rotates on its longitudinal axis. However, unlike a conventional aileron roll, Johnston maintained positive gravity through the maneuver. There is a difference in technique/control inputs as well as stress on the aircraft. Peforming either one in a large commercial airliner or bomber like the B-52 requires utmost skill if it is possible at all. Certainly not for amateurs.

Interestingly, "Tex" Johnston also did initial flight testing on the YB-52. If it could be rolled, he would have been the guy to do it.

 

[A4sForever]

You boys should have seen "B-52 Boeing Field" (Seattle) in the '50's ... talk about B-52's!!! I remember coming over the hill above the field in my parents' car and being awed by the sight of dozens of "tails" --- B-47's and then B-52's --- lined up behind the screen fences, fresh off the production lines. It looked like a forest ... dozens of planes -- 2-3 rows deep --- of tall silver tails.

I'm thinking the B-52 was first called "Buff" during the Vietnam time-frame. Anyone ... ??? At least I never heard the term prior to that time frame; that's all I've heard since. And I've spent a lot of time in and around Boeing.

Something like this B-29 pix ... can't find a "'52 tail" picture.

 

[TheBubba]

Flyin',

Good vid... Didn't realize the -52 needed that much nose-down for take-off...