Lose lose situation with squadron

[rare21]

I just wanted to get different opinions here from flight school bubbas. This has probably happened to many of us: Schedules or the ODO puts you up on a flight that violates crew rest, you're put up for a flight that is in a whole different category than the stage you're in (a PA flight while you're in the middle of RI's for example and you havent done contact in months), you're put up for a flight that you've been scheduled to do with someone else but the ODO doesnt care, you're put up for a flight but you know that you require a mandatory warmup, etc. I think you get my drift on this. Now in each of these instances if you speak up you're gonna get the shaft, ribbing, complaints, and looked down upon by whoever you mention it too. On the other hand you can keep it to yourself and hurt yourself grade wise, crew rest wise, etc. I just wanted to see what you all would do, make it known, or keep it to yourself. I think it would be very interesting to see the different opinions on this.

 

[Banjo33]

Crew Rest issue, X-country that you've planned with another instructor already, MANDATORY (not optional) warm-up, or an event in a stage you've not had the lecture for....bring it to their attention (ODO and/or Scheds). You're not going to get hassled about it....unless they tell you you ARE going to do the event regardless, then suck it up and do the event to the best of your abilities.

 

[squeeze]

If it busts crew rest, don't fly it. That's toying with OPNAV, so that's an easy one to decide. If they jack with a CC you planned, tell them. If you're up for a mando w/u or haven't had the prereq's, ya, I guess technically you shouldn't fly it, but I would say that's the judgement call one if they press the issue. If you know you could do it and do it well, fly it....if you're not 100% on it, make them fix it, because in the end, you're right. By the time you're in RIs, most of the instructors are pretty cool with you and aren't going to try to shaft you. By the time I was in RIs, I pretty much handpicked every one of my flights and instructors and if appeared differently on the schedule, skeds fixed it.

Overall though, you have OPNAV or CNATRAs MCG on your side for those issues (short of "i dont want to fly with that instructor")

/my .02

 

[petescheu]

yeah don't EVER break crew rest... trust me on this one, i found out about that the hard way. a very very bad idea, they don't mess around with that..

 

[rare21]

great responses, but of course all that is in a perfect world. i've just brought this up because these things have happened to many folks in the squadron or to me myself (actually it seems all those have happened to me) and wanted to see everyone's opinion.

 

[webmaster]

Don't break crew rest

Already mentioned, but first off, DON'T GO INTO A FLIGHT UNPREPARED. From Primary, through Advanced, and in the fleet, OPS doesn't always get things 100% right, so it is up to you to help them QA it, and say "no, this isn't correct". Of course how you handle it will determine how OPS/ODO/IP responds.

Crew rest, bottom line, don't break it. What is your primary mission? Training. You don't take off into nasty weather, you aren't supporting anyone else, you aren't "raining steel from above" (hey, we drop sonobuoys at least regularly! :icon_smil ) , and all you are doing is training. That is NOT enough reason to break crew rest. Have I broken crew rest?, yes, and each time it has not been fun explaining to the old man why we broke it, especially since those actions just took an entire crew from OPS for the next day's schedule. Take in mind also that ANY long flight in the P3 is going to push the 18 hour day window. Did any of those times involve training? Hell no, they were operational flights where the MC had to make the hard call.

 

[Flash]

yeah don't EVER break crew rest... trust me on this one, i found out about that the hard way. a very very bad idea, they don't mess around with that..

Having experienced both the P-3 world and Tacair, I can say that crew rest is sometimes bent in Tacair. Only in war is it sometimes not an option though(unless you are in the USAF, they never broke it). That said, you are in a training enviroment and there is no excuse to break crew rest. There aren't any time critical targets like Middle Eastern dictators that you have to take out in southern Texas or LA, there will always be another day to fly your training mission. It takes some cahones to stand up to those mighty instructors but it is the right thing to do and you might be suprised that the majority of them will actually listen to you.

 

[46Driver]

In the training command, DO NOT BREAK CREWDAY. PERIOD. No instructor is going to say anything about it to you. As a student, I had a 16 hour day because I didn't want to say anything and thought I could "suck it up". Wrong answer. Worst flight I had in the training command and should have gotten a down, however I had a cross country scheduled the next day with a reservist and the IP didn't want to ruin the reservist's weekend. Everybody gets lucky now and then........

 

[virtu050]

rare21 i dunno what sqdn you're in but in my squadron i've never had a problem with explaining scheduling goof-ups... in fact there have been times where i would talk to my onwing and called scheds to ask them why they weren't scheduling me.. turns out i was ahead of the class glideslope. And if you're in the middle of RI's and getting schedule for PA's/Forms then that sounds like you're in Vt-3. I think that's f*cked up. you should definitely have your entire squadron stuff that "anymouse box" with complaints.

 

[bch]

Two words... On wing. I had the same thing happen to me, had been 41 days since my last flight and they would not schedule me for a warmup.... Call your on wing!!!!

 

[Gatordev]

Most of what needs to be said has been said, but I have to put in a different perspective. First up, yeah, who cares what the hell skeds thinks. John said they don't always get things right 100% of the time. There were almost two weeks at the end of HTs where I was on track for my winging date, and they would still break my crew rest AND crew day every single day. I'd get back at night, talk with the AT2 that was manning the desk, and she'd always roll her eyes and make fun of me, but she knew where the real issue was, and it became a daily joke.

Secondly, those rules are there for a reason, and flight school skeds isn't going to be the ones you'll have to worry about in your career. There will be ship's captains who will be pressuring you to do the wrong thing. That's part of being an aircraft commander...knowing the rules, and knowing you shouldn't break them, and knowing when you really need to. It gets even harder when your immediate chain of commmand doesn't follow the rules (although it's a great way to learn the rules). Even now I have to bring my Det Opso back to reality every so often. It's not a big deal, and that's why we all work together to catch those things.

So don't go down that slippery slope.

 

[rare21]

no i'm not in VT-3 but it sounds like that squadron has a reputation. I guess the only thing you can do is the right thing despite the pull asides that warn you of looking bad in front of the IPs, looking like you dont want to fly, etc.

 

[bluesmobile]

Another option if you're scheduled for a flight in a different block is to call the IP for that flight. A few months ago, I was scheduled for a FAM warmup the day after my first BI flight. I called the instructor and talked to him about it, and he told me to get ready for the BI flight and not the warmup. The IP can change the event on his own, and that's much easier then having to go through scheds or OPS. Just make sure you tell the ODO after the flight, so they know to put you on the right flight next time.

 

[bluesmobile]

oh yeah, and a note on getting scheduled for a flight you haven't had the lecture for...it's ultimately your responsibility to make sure you get the correct lectures. i know of a few guys who didn't snivel for the safe-for-solo brief and came up on their checkride...they cancelled the event, but not quietly.

 

[TurnandBurn55]

Already mentioned, but first off, DON'T GO INTO A FLIGHT UNPREPARED. From Primary, through Advanced, and in the fleet, OPS doesn't always get things 100% right, so it is up to you to help them QA it, and say "no, this isn't correct". Of course how you handle it will determine how OPS/ODO/IP responds.

Yeah, that's pretty big in my observation. The worst thing you can pull off in flight school is a 'Ready Room Down'-- basically getting a down before you get in the airplane because you're unprepared. Bad enough just getting a down-- but once you get an RRD, every instructor you get for awhile will be trying to push you in the brief to make sure you're not a waste of their time. Never happened to me, but I've heard it happen to others-- and trust me, the instructors can come up with some wacky sh!t.

On the other hand, if your grading sheets are consistently reading 'strong brief, good plan'-- you'll start catching breaks and get more underhand pitches in the briefs. And that's a good way to start the flight well.