Looking for the name of a manuver

[MasterBates]

AirWarriors,

When you see in a lot of either WWII combat film, or movies made about that war, you often see a division break up by "peeling off" and going down toward the target.

It looks more like a barrel roll and less like a split S but I'm not sure what the heck it is.

Can anyone enlighten me? I have 3 PA/AOA approach flights left, and I get a lot of "playtime" to practice things. Would like to do one, at least once, provided it is legal to do so.

 

[othromas]

I just thought those were wingovers. I'm not trying to be a smart@ss, that's what I thought they were.

 

[scoober78]

If I understand you correctly, it is the type of manuver that the Blues enter the break with...looks kinda like this?

If that is it...it's called a tuck-under break....at least as far as I know...there may be other names for it.

I just thought those were wingovers. I'm not trying to be a smart@ss, that's what I thought they were.

There is no pitch change....did you do PA's in primary???

 

[Intruder Driver]

A wingover is an acro maneuver, pure and simple, and the initial vector is up, not down.

The 'peel off' you see, if for an attack, is standard fare when taking a 2, 3 or 4 ship to a target. The flight should actually be tracking on a circular flight path, so that every 1-2 seconds a plane is breaking off toward the target, and the attack headings will all be staggered inbound to the target. One of the issues is to stay clear of the bomb's frag pattern; e.g., the rule of thumb we used for a MK-82 (500 lb) was 2500' blast radius for 30 seconds after impact.

 

[MasterBates]

Not the tuck under.. Seing if I can find a clip

 

[Catmando]

Just to add what Intruder Driver correctly said…

The 'peel off' was to get the nose to fall through while turning toward the target and to get it down to the proper dive angle (we used 40 degrees dive normally, but WWII pilots went even steeper) for the planned weapon release.

 

[Intruder Driver]

Just to add what Intruder Drive correctly said…

The 'peel off' was to get the nose to fall through while turning toward the target and get it down to the proper dive angle (we used 40 degrees dive normally, but WWII pilots went even steeper) for the planned weapon release.

Thanks Cat. It looks like a pretty simple maneuver but, tragically, there have been several incidents where one plane has managed to get under another as bombs were being released with catastrophic, and usually non-survivable, results. It happened in El Centro in the late '70's with a flight of four RAG A-6's. I know the pilot of the A6 that dropped and he still carries that burden, though the A6 that was hit was deemed to be at fault. There have been many more close calls.

 

[jarhead]

a loaded roll followed by a steep dive once the is nose down? ... probably not official but i've always known it as the "Pappy peel-off" (after Pappy Boyington)

 

[HeyJoe]

Would like to do one, at least once, provided it is legal to do so.

Let's see...you're going to VR so hopefully this is a one time fantasy. Otherwise, I will be checking the next time I get in the back of a COD to make sure you got the one time fix. If not, I'm very sure I don't want to be in the back when you are flying out to the boat.

 

[A4sForever]

It's just called a section or division "roll in" on the target .... no fancy terms ... sometimes it's described as a "wagon wheel" roll in .... 'cause that's the 'shape' it takes .... each aircraft being one of the "spokes" of the wheel as you -- the division --- drives a semi-arc around the target as everyone rolls in with a very short interval. An ALPHA roll in --- many planes --- was essentially the same thing .... just everyone rolling in from every compass point in the sky. We normally shot for at least a 45 degree dive ... better hits were achieved @ 60 degree dive. Know your "gouge" mil settings !!!!!

It -- the "wheel" --- wasn't for bomb frag avoidance --- that's what minimum pickle altitude was --- the "wheel" roll in thinking was --- the spread between airplanes --- the spokes of the wheel --- the thinking was that it would throw off the aim of any gunners .... too many targets coming at you from too many parts of the sky.

Individually, it can take the form of a level pulling/rolling maneuver to a nose down position for the dive .... but I found I was significantly more accurate if I rolled up onto my back (something akin to a barrel roll/split S hybrid) and "marched" or "moved" the target across the top of the canopy until it was .... just ....right .... THERE !! ... then pull, grunt .... pulling down smartly and smoothly .... more grunt ..... while rolling wings level, pipper position below the target , track, correct, check altitude, track, check altitude, track, correct, track, check altitude ...... etc., etc. .... ALTITUDE ... pickle, pause, PULL!!! :sleep_125

Look over your shoulder while reaching for the sky .... and jinking .... GOOD HIT !!! .... we hope.

A tuck-under is a completely different animal ... it's not used for tactical multi-plane roll-in's .... although I DID used to do them at Dixie North target in South Texas just to mess with the minds of the STUDs riding in my back seat ...

*edit* The old joke was: to get a guaranteed DFC/Silver Star ..... you broadcast on the UHF at roll in ... "I'm HIT, but I'm rollin' in anyway !!!!" ...

 

[scoober78]

A tuck-under is a completely different animal ... it's not used for tactical multi-plane roll-in's .... although I DID used to do them at Dixie North target in South Texas just to mess with the minds of the STUDs riding in my back seat ...

Sorry Bates, for the bad gouge. Just taking a stab at it.

 

[nittany03]

Tuck-under breaks discussed at length here . . . Short version, for a left hand pattern or roll-in, you roll 270 degrees right to ~90 left AOB.

Highly illegal if you're not the Blues . . .

 

[MasterBates]

Let's see...you're going to VR so hopefully this is a one time fantasy. Otherwise, I will be checking the next time I get in the back of a COD to make sure you got the one time fix. If not, I'm very sure I don't want to be in the back when you are flying out to the boat.

Afraid of the "Tuck Under" at the boat?

Hell, I don't think the COD can do it, but I'll let a COD guru chime in on that. I am but a mailman in training.

Anyways, I would be doing it on the T-34..

 

[A4sForever]

Afraid of the "Tuck Under" at the boat? .....

One of our A-7 drivers did it .... twice .... @ CUBI.

He got warned ... once ..... and grounded .... and put in hack .... twice. The second time ... he got leg-irons up at the BOQ annex 'cause he kept going out into the "PO" the first time around ...

*edit* ... I don't think I'd recommend doing one in the T-34 .... i.e., "DO YOU FEEL LUCKY???" .... just sayin' ....

 

[Catmando]

Had a RIO once who was always complaining about his aching back. When I him asked about it, he said it was from a tuck-under break…..

…Seems in another squadron he was once involved in a 4-plane tuck-under going into Yuma…that resulted in several ejections.