Limits on flight hours for airline pilots?

[Swmtb]

A few weeks ago, I was on a Delta flight scheduled to depart Atlanta for Pensacola Reg'l. After about 6hrs of delays and what-not, we finally taxi out, and start rolling down the runway... we hadn't even exceeded 25kts or so when the plane turned off of the runway, and the captain came on the PA system and told us that the first officer had flown too many hours that week, and thus could not complete the flight. We returned to the gate to find out that the flight had been cancelled, because they could not find a replacement, or something like that. Now, several of the passengers, including myself, were raising the BS-flag on this one...
To those in the know: are there limitations like this out there? If so, is it up to the specific airlines, or are they imposed by the FAA? Also, is the regulation of these limitations (if they do exist) strict enough to prohibit a flight in the way it apparently prohibited mine?

Thanks

 

[FLY_USMC]

Specifics vary depending on part 135 versus part 141 flying, but it is very true. 135 max per year is 1200 hours, with max of 120 hours per month, 30 per week, 8 hours per day. Believe part 141 is 1000 hours per year, 100 hours per month, still 30 hours a week, and 8 hours per day The FAA regulates this and it's essentially the companies job to "attempt" to schedule you accordingly, but it's your job to CYOA as not to overfly your maximium, nor overfly your duty day. These typically come into play when, like you said, weather and delays screw up your day. If they pilot came in, and had to wait 6-10-12 hours, though not flying, it's still considered duty, and limited to the FAA regulation. This is the kind of stuff rather than memorize it, just carry a sheet printed from the FAR's with you somewhere to reference. We worry about crew rest here, 12 hours on, 12 hours off, so it's easy to believe civilians have the same/similar requirements. Now when it comes to working a 14 hour day and getting a guaranteed 10 hours off and all that jazz, ask someone who cares.

 

[Swmtb]

FLY_USMC, thanks for the info!

 

[HAL Pilot]

I believe Fly_USMC meant 121 not 141.

Airlines fly under FAR 121. For domestic operations the limits are 30 hour in 7 days, 100 hours in the current month and 1000 hours in the calendar year. Flag ops (scheduled international flights) are 32 in 7, 100 & 1000. There are also different limits for Supplemental (unscheduled, i.e. charter) flying and flying with extra pilots, etc. 2 pilot crews are limited to 8 hours flying and 16 hours of duty by the FAA. Many contracts have shorter crew days (14 is probably the norm). Once these contracts limits are incorporated into a company's manual and that manual is approved by the FAA - these limits are than legally binding and superseded the FAR limits. To complicate it more, the amount of FAR required rest between flights is mandated by how much you flew the day prior and the length of your last rest period.

Now to further complicate it, it is possible that the Captain and FO had different schedules both the days prior to the flight and the day of the flight. So while one might be legal, the other might not.

The crew can not take off knowing they will exceed either their flight time or crew day limits. If something out of their control (higher than forecast headwinds, thunderstorm avoidance, etc.) changes during the flight, it's OK. It is very conceivable that they left the gate legally and than had a weather update, ATC delay information, etc. prior to takeoff that would end up making one of them illegal. Shit happens. They went back to the gate to protect their license and the company.

They probably did not go on the runway with the intention of taking off, but rather used the runway to get back to the appropriate taxiway to return to the gate. This would be either because there was no room to turn around or because there were other aircraft blocking the taxiway behind them.

This situation is not surprising if there had been a 6 hour delay. My guess is that they were probably hoping they would get wheels up in time to be legal and realized it was not going to work out. They probably pushed it to the last possible minute because they knew there were no other pilots available to replace the them. Airlines don't keep extra pilots sitting around at every airport, the reserves are usually just at the domicile airports (pilot home bases).

So no BS flag for this one. Understandable while you and the other pax were pissed off though.

 

[A4sForever]

^ An excellent explanation of something that is airline-esoteric by nature and does not readily lend itself to the "conventional wisdom" of the traveling public .... BZ, HAL.

There's no "B.S." here ... it happens. The 6 hour delay is probably what bit the crew --- crew schedules WOULD NOT let them shut down in the gate. Crew skeds will make you go to the precipice before turning back and shutting down. If you don't like it --- go talk to the FAA. These rules and others like it have been in place ever since jets joined the airways. I GUARANTEE you no crew is going to knowingly man up, preflight, start, taxi out and then come back to the gate --- at least not willingly.



....... An AW smile for you, HAL ....

 

[FLY_USMC]

I believe Fly_USMC meant 121 not 141.

OOOOOPPPPSSS, yes I did.

 

[Schnugg]

Can you imagine the sh!t-storm if that pilot went flying and a mishap occured...then after the fact info revealed he was over his hours for that week and knew it when he took off?

CYA baby...CYA.

 

[Swmtb]

Gentlemen, thanks for providing me (and others too, I bet) these insights into the world of commercial aviation... I for one had really no idea how this sort of thing works.

Some follow-up questions: Who is responsible for tracking these hours? The pilots themselves (my assumption), or do airlines have a sort of 'dispatch center' that monitors this? A combination maybe?

As far as "raising the BS flag" goes, I was more pissed off at the airline than at the pilots themselves. It took me longer to fly from Chicago to Atlanta, and then get canceled there, than it would have taken to drive from Chicago to Pensacola...I'm sure everyone's pretty much been in that situation.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Some follow-up questions: Who is responsible for tracking these hours? The pilots themselves (my assumption), or do airlines have a sort of 'dispatch center' that monitors this? A combination maybe?

The FAA will hold both responsible. Dispatch is supposed to track it but the smart airline pilot does too. CYA - the airline will hang you out to dry in a heart beat.

 

[A4sForever]

The FAA will hold both responsible.......

And the airline will not get shut down over an incident like this if it not a wholesale pattern of abusing the FAR's on their part. But the pilot ??? Your license is highly frangible for a variety of reasons. You don't want the FAA "looking" at you any more than you "want" an audit by the IRS .... the pilot is ALWAYS responsible, at the end of the day, for adhering to the requirements of your license.

One FAA inspector told me a long, long time ago (in Dallas) that when you finish your days and retire from the airline ... you want both the company AND the FAA to say .... "Congratulations on your career and forthcoming retirement .... but who are you? We never knew you .... "

 

[kray1395]

Here is the results of an NTSB investigation that very much deals with this issue:

NTSB says crash was pilot error

Smyrna-based RegionsAir still faces lawsuits in deaths

By BILL THEOBALD
Tennessean Washington Bureau


WASHINGTON — A long day of flying and sophomoric chatter between pilots as they attempted to land led them to violate procedures and crash a plane owned by Smyrna-based RegionsAir in October 2004.

That was the National Transportation Safety Board's conclusion yesterday regarding the Oct. 19 crash just short of the Kirksville, Mo., airport runway that killed 13 of 15 people aboard.




At a half-day hearing, safety board investigators said the pilot and first officer dipped the plane below a required altitude before they saw runway lights or other landmarks on the ground.

The pilot, Kim Sasse, 48, of Ramsey, N.J., was trying to spot the runway through low clouds that evening instead of keeping his eyes on the plane's instruments as is required, the board concluded. And the first officer, Jonathan Palmer, 29, of Cincinnati, failed to challenge the pilot when the plane began to descend. Both died.

RegionsAir, known as Corporate Airlines Inc. at the time of the accident, was not faulted by the board. It found the Jetstream 3201 twin-engine turboprop had been properly maintained and that the company's "policies, procedures and training were consistent with industry standards."

Much of the board's attention focused on the fact that the plane, flying as American Connection Flight 5966 from St. Louis to Kirksville, and its crew were in their sixth flight of the day. They had been on duty 14 hours and 31 minutes at the time of the crash. It was also the third consecutive day of flying for the crew.

While none of this exceeded federal guidelines, the board recommended that the Federal Aviation Administration review its hours-of-service regulations and require airlines to include information about fatigue in their pilot training.

Pete Janhunen, spokesman for the Air Line Pilots Association, said financial strains on the airline industry in recent years have made pilot fatigue a more critical problem.

"These guys take off a lot, they land a lot, their days are long," Janhunen said. "Companies are pushing them right up to the limits (of the law) on a routine basis."

Staff and board members of the safety agency also were critical of the joking and banter between Sasse and Palmer that was revealed on the flight voice recorder.

"This was extremely disappointing," said acting NTSB chairman Mark Rosenker. "When you get in the cockpit, this is serious business."

The board recommended that pilots be reminded to maintain a "sterile cockpit."

Lisa Sasse, sister-in-law of the pilot, attended the hearing. "We're here today for a common goal: to maintain airline safety," she said, declining to comment further.

About a dozen lawsuits have been filed against the airline, which is in the process of being purchased by Viva International Inc. Viva operates airlines serving the Caribbean.

Doug Caldwell, president of RegionsAir, did not return a phone call seeking comment. •

There is also an excerpt of the conversation between the two pilots during the moments leading up to the crash. Just follow this link:

http://tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060125/BUSINESS01/601250384

 

[ElCidAv8tor05]

ok, this may be a stupid question; but if a crew is limited to 8 hours per day of flight time, how can they make those long 15 hour flights from LAX to Australia? I assume they carry two crews, or are there special exemptions for thsoe kind of flights? I dunno maybe the Captain and FO switch flying and napping. Anyway, just curious. Thanks.

-"Easy"

 

[A4sForever]

ok, this may be a stupid question; but if a crew is limited to 8 hours per day of flight time, how can they make those long 15 hour flights from LAX to Australia? ........."

Not a stupid question. Maybe YOU'RE stupid .... maybe I'M inherently stoooopid ... but the question comes up from time to time.

For Part 121 operations (airlines) check out (online) FAR 121, Subpart R, Flight time limitations, Flag operations. Part 135 operations have their own set of rules and regs.

Basically, for international part 121, it's no more than 12 in 24, but that is an oversimplification ... as with all things Federal, there's a lot of "what if's", qualifications, and loopholes ... i.e., one pilot, two pilots, three pilots, four pilots, flight engineers, deadhead, ..... you get the picture.

And when we flew CRAF --- we were getting "waivers" ... a couple of times I logged over 120 hours/month (hard time -- not "credit").

 

[mules83]

Here is the FAR that talks about flight time limitations for all flight crewmembers:

FAR 121.471

And here is subpart R as A4s was talking about for others:

R

 

[A4sForever]

Here is the results of an NTSB investigation ......
NTSB says crash was pilot error ....... A long day of flying and sophomoric chatter between pilots as they attempted to land led them to violate procedures and crash a plane owned by Smyrna-based RegionsAir in October 2004.

I read the whole transcript ... it's very depressing. I always hesitate to judge another pilot unless their performance is especially bad --- since there, but for the grace of God go I. But .... this kind of non-standard banter and behavior would NEVER be officially condoned by any FAA certified airline that I am familiar with. Nor would it happen in the cockpit of any airline Captain that I am familiar with .... but I wasn't there --- and the voice transcript is just a point in time --- but it sounded bad, very bad --- to me.

I have flown as a S/O and F/O --- in the "old days" --- with guys that had such a laid-back attitude that one would think they placed a premium on "minimalism". Most of them are gone. I don't know whether or not that "minimalism" was in play here --- but we do know they're both dead. And so are the people whose safety they were charged with .... a very bad showing.

But, again ... I wasn't there.