• Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?

    Go here:

    Edit Account Details and Profile

NEWS LCS buy reduced, funding moved to other programs.

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
...A few hundred million dollars to put a single, functioning RBS-15 Mk3 launcher and missile on every LCS would increase lethality and strike range overnight. These are billion dollar warships. Would we rather have 52 ships without an anti ship missile >5nm range, or 50 ships that all pack a decent punch from afar?...We're capable of making smart acquisition decisions independent of "Made in USA."

It isn't just 'Made in the USA' that is an obstacle, though it is a big one, it is all the testing, support and integration that would be necessary to make it a viable weapon system on the LCS. Installing and testing the necessary radars, making sure it and the missiles meet US specs and that it doesn't interfere with other US systems (emissions control, inadvertent jamming due to frequency overlap, etc) are just a few of the things that would have to be checked out. Then there is the support, do we manufacture the missiles or rely on Sweden to make sure we get supplied with them? Can we do upgrades on our own?

There is good reason we procure weapons the way we do, we often actually use them operationally when much of the world never does. Many countries buy weapon systems without taking everything into consideration and they are often unsustainable in a conflict lasting more than a few days or at worst are nothing but showpieces. You find this often in the Middle East but it is the same story all over the world. That is one reason US FMS sales, while very expensive and often restrictive in some aspects, is appealing to many countries. We don't just sell them the weapon system, a few manuals and which them luck but we try and sell a weapon system that can be maintained and used for as long as the country wants it.

If you want a good example of two countries with completely different train and equip philosophies you can do little better than to study the Falklands War. Even with an air force that was much bigger than the UK forces in the region and a military that was well-equipped on paper the Argentinians were soundly defeated by the Brits.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
For the record, the Coasties would love it if we sent even one LCS down to 4th fleet. Without divulging too much sensitive information, they need our help in a bad way. Seems like a win-win mission for them and us: Finally, LCS would have some good publicity after scooping up some dope!

Is it really a fleet if it has no ships?
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
For the record, the Coasties would love it if we sent even one LCS down to 4th fleet. Without divulging too much sensitive information, they need our help in a bad way. Seems like a win-win mission for them and us: Finally, LCS would have some good publicity after scooping up some dope!

If LCS can ever make it to the pier in any kind of numbers, I think things are going to get very interesting down there.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I'm not saying they should be built for that purpose. But they're going to/are being built, and when they show up, I think it will make SOUTHCOM a little more interesting.

I understand completely and I do think they would be a great addition to SOUTHCOM and JIATF-South but I think it highlights the stark difference between it and other similar ships, especially when it comes to cost. While not exactly equivalent to the LCS, especially when it comes to speed, the Dutch OPV's are all in service and were bought for a fraction of the cost, all four of them cost less than two LCS's even with the recent price drop, and they are all FOC and deploying right now.

I also want to slap whoever thought we should bring back aluminum ships, have we forgotten the lessons of the Stark and the Falklands already?!
 

BigRed389

Registered User
None
This is why strategy has to drive planning, programming, and execution. Tie your dollars and execution directly to the strategy.

A few hundred million dollars to put a single, functioning RBS-15 Mk3 launcher and missile on every LCS would increase lethality and strike range overnight. These are billion dollar warships. Would we rather have 52 ships without an anti ship missile >5nm range, or 50 ships that all pack a decent punch from afar?

They're tough conversations...but they're conversations Congress can have if we (Big Navy) can determine and articulate how the overall strategy drives our resourcing decisions. We bought the M-249 SAW off-the-shelf from Belgian FN. We're capable of making smart acquisition decisions independent of "Made in USA."

The missile the Surface Navy seems to really want to put on these things is NSM, which despite being Norwegian, gained a lot of appeal to senior voices in both OPNAV and the Fleet, over several turnovers. It being foreign made isn't really the issue, especially since they always team up with a US partner (in this case they already lined up Raytheon) to help them with integration and dealing with the Pentagon.

The problem is that if you did put these all on LCS, then what? LCS doesn't actually even "possibly need" that kind of ASCMs unless we get into a shooting war with China. In that case, you've got ~20 LCS's doing independent ops (they can't keep up with the strike groups over the long haul) in the SCS, trying to find targets over the horizon and engage them on their own. I suppose it's better than nothing, but would it actually "help?"

Even though there seems to be some general consensus that it would be better than nothing, when it comes to the crunch in prioritization, there are so many programs that are higher priority that are coming due. And I don't just mean the big budget stuff like JSF, ORP, CVNs.
If LCS takes 10+ years to get an ASCM it won't be considered a failure. But if they can't get its MCM or ASW mission modules working soon, then it absolutely will be a failure of a program because that's what actual requirements it was pitched to fill. Guess which programs PEO LCS is prioritizing?
 
Last edited:

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
If you want a good example of two countries with completely different train and equip philosophies you can do little better than to study the Falklands War. Even with an air force that was much bigger than the UK forces in the region and a military that was well-equipped on paper the Argentinians were soundly defeated by the Brits.
A missile here, a shittily fused bomb there, and all of the sudden, the Brits would have been the proverbial RCH away from losing that war. "Soundly defeated?" Don't make me laugh. As in many cases, the side that made the least mistakes won. Nothing there was preordained. Heck, if the Argies had waited a few more months for Thatcher's government to emasculate Her Majesty's fleet, they'd have had no choice but to bend over and take it.
 

hscs

Registered User
pilot
Some things to think about - we have now overbought on helos, particularly on HSC side since HSC will not go onto any of the extra Burkes.

We bought the LCS when we thought we would only be fighting small wars, and people lacked the foresight to hedge against a multi-polar world as the MDCOA.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
A missile here, a shittily fused bomb there, and all of the sudden, the Brits would have been the proverbial RCH away from losing that war. "Soundly defeated?" Don't make me laugh. As in many cases, the side that made the least mistakes won. Nothing there was preordained. Heck, if the Argies had waited a few more months for Thatcher's government to emasculate Her Majesty's fleet, they'd have had no choice but to bend over and take it.

I've read quite a bit about the war and I have come to the firm belief that it wasn't as close run thing as many folks seem to suppose. There are a lot of wouldas and shouldas but the simple fact was the Brits persevered and probably could have done so through a lot more.

One big thing folks seem to forget is that the Brits actually held back considerably. They never struck mainland Argentina, though they appear to have attempted some sort of commando op, even though they had some capability to do so. They also kept a tight leash on their subs as well. Even the loss of a carrier would not have been fatal, they had another one coming out of the yards just a few weeks later if it came to that.

Simple fact is the Argie military was short on skill, training and the latest gear. They didn't lack numbers, a long term strategy and guts on part of the leadership of the Navy and Army. British training prevailed, backed up by good kit and a sense of purpose from the PM on down.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
The problem is that if you did put these all on LCS, then what? LCS doesn't actually even "possibly need" that kind of ASCMs unless we get into a shooting war with China. In that case, you've got ~20 LCS's doing independent ops (they can't keep up with the strike groups over the long haul) in the SCS, trying to find targets over the horizon and engage them on their own. I suppose it's better than nothing, but would it actually "help?"

That is my biggest problem with the LCS program, it can't really work with the rest of the fleet in many scenarios to include those that involve a shooting war at sea.
 

BigRed389

Registered User
None
That is my biggest problem with the LCS program, it can't really work with the rest of the fleet in many scenarios to include those that involve a shooting war at sea.

But with the right loadout, it could.

It's not ever going to haul ass at 30kts for days on end, we knew that.
It's also not going to sit around in a war under a serious missile threat...of course that'd be silly.

But if you want something to operate in the SCS, out of easy reach of most PLAN/PLAAF assets, sealing off the southern maritime approaches, LCS would do it quite nicely. Especially with ASW modules to keep the SSNs from having to sit on those waters when they could be operating where you really need a sub's survivability. LCS with VDS, a USV, MFTA, brings the right tools to do littoral ASW.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
But with the right loadout, it could.

With its current design I don't think it can get the 'right' loadout.

It's also not going to sit around in a war under a serious missile threat...of course that'd be silly.

But if you want something to operate in the SCS, out of easy reach of most PLAN/PLAAF assets, sealing off the southern maritime approaches, LCS would do it quite nicely. Especially with ASW modules to keep the SSNs from having to sit on those waters when they could be operating where you really need a sub's survivability. LCS with VDS, a USV, MFTA, brings the right tools to do littoral ASW.

If you are in the SCS you are within easy reach of the PLAAF/PLAN.
 

Hair Warrior

Well-Known Member
Contributor
In that case, you've got ~20 LCS's doing independent ops (they can't keep up with the strike groups over the long haul) in the SCS, trying to find targets over the horizon and engage them on their own.
Good point. Although, isn't the idea that the targeting info for over-the-horizon surface-to-whatever missiles will be generated not by the LCS itself, but by F-35's flying through contested airspace, drones of all sizes and loiter durations, and/or IMINT?

I feel like the LCS is designed be that one dude in every Call of Duty multiplayer game who just camps out right near where the enemy spawns, and shoots him in the back in the first 2 seconds the enemy is noticed. Except it will be all over Pacific littorals and we'll have ~12 of them dotted around, hangin out undetected, with missiles that have a strike range >100nm (>185km), ready to shoot when a target package is relayed over secure wireless/sat network via an ISR asset elsewhere.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
We bought the LCS when we thought we would only be fighting small wars, and people lacked the foresight to hedge against a multi-polar world as the MDCOA.
In the worst case MDCOA we still have 5 CSGs with associated escorts and 35 SSNs that can be underway on short notice. That is plenty of firepower to handle any blue water conflict, considering the whole requirement is constructed around maintaining the capability to fight a two-ocean war. I think that is getting lost here when discussing whether arming LCSs with OTHT and ASCMs is a worthwhile investment.

We have the assets to fight that battle, what we don't have are cheaper, modular assets to handle lower scale conflicts. The LCS was conceived because the Navy didn't like answering every call with an expensive CSG or SAG that could be used elsewhere.
 
Top