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LCDR Attrition at 20 Years Question

New to SELRES, question about mandatory separation for LCDRs. Assume the following situation:

-Officer joins SELRES after 10 years active service.
-Picks up LCDR.
-Spends the next 10 years in SELRES, but 1 of those years is not a qualifying year due to failure to get 50 points.
-Does not pick up CDR.

When the LCDR hits 20 years of commissioned service, he/she will only have 19 qualifying years of service towards retirement ... Title 10 US Code, Chapter 1407 states that:

"Lieutenant Commanders: in an active status ... who twice fail of selection to CDR and have completed 20 years of commissioned service will be transferred to the Retired Reserve, if qualified, or be honorably discharged from the Navy Reserve not later than the first day of the month following the month in which the officer completes 20 years of commissioned service."

Does this mean that, absent an approved continuation request, this officer will be honorably discharged with no retirement benefits, at the 20 year commissioned service point? Or is there a (logical) exception for this situation?
 

bubblehead

Registered Member
Contributor
Check out MILPERSMAN 1001-100 which references 10 U.S.C. and SECNAVINST 1920.6C Administrative Separation of Officers, which is where this crap is detailed:

O4's get the boot after 2xFOS for O5 when they hit 20 years of service. Page 43 of the SECNAVINST.

23019

Keep in mind that after you pin on O4 you have another, at least, 7 years until you hit your flow point for O5 and are board eligible. You hit your flow point for O5 at the 15 - 17 years of commissioned service range.

23020


BT

Highly recommend downloading the 4,000 page MILPERSMAN. It's the bible for this rate maze. I keep a copy of it on my computer along with a bunch of other instructions (.
 
Thanks for the links and flowpoints. Let's assume your 2XFOS occurred at the 17th and 18th years. My question revolves around the difference between commissioned service vs qualifying service. My understanding is that mandatory separation for O-4s occurs at 20 years commissioned service ... but if you had a bad year (i.e. non-qualifying year < 50 points), you would only have 19 qualifying years of service when you reach 20 commissioned years of service, which isn't enough to draw a retirement. So is there an allowance for an O-4 to continue serving to get that last year of qualifying service for retirement, aside from a continuation request?
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
As a SELRES you can ask for waivers to stay beyond the 20 year mark as an O-4. From the couple of guys I’ve seen that did that, they weren’t dirtbags and they got the command to agree.

I’d say if you were a non-existent or pain in the ass SELRES, it might be tougher. In my entire sample size of 2 dudes, it seemed fairly straightforward enough.
 

Randy Daytona

Cold War Relic
pilot
Super Moderator
Thanks for the links and flowpoints. Let's assume your 2XFOS occurred at the 17th and 18th years. My question revolves around the difference between commissioned service vs qualifying service. My understanding is that mandatory separation for O-4s occurs at 20 years commissioned service ... but if you had a bad year (i.e. non-qualifying year < 50 points), you would only have 19 qualifying years of service when you reach 20 commissioned years of service, which isn't enough to draw a retirement. So is there an allowance for an O-4 to continue serving to get that last year of qualifying service for retirement, aside from a continuation request?
BUPERSINST 1001.39F As a reservist, get to know it (roughly 250 pages). From Chapter 1, page 8: Officers, in the ranks of captain and below meeting the provisions addressed above who have between 18 and 20 years of qualifying service for retirement purposes at the time of required attrition, are offered a one-time exemption (for a specified time per 10 U.S.C., 1264G), allowing them the opportunity to attain 20 years of qualifying service.

Also take a look at the difference between getting 50 points (a good year) and 27 points (keeps you in an active status). I thought I remembered you were given 24 years to get 20 qualifying years, but can't place where I got that from. At any rate, welcome to SelRes - it can be a lot of fun.
 
BUPERSINST 1001.39F As a reservist, get to know it (roughly 250 pages). From Chapter 1, page 8: Officers, in the ranks of captain and below meeting the provisions addressed above who have between 18 and 20 years of qualifying service for retirement purposes at the time of required attrition, are offered a one-time exemption (for a specified time per 10 U.S.C., 1264G), allowing them the opportunity to attain 20 years of qualifying service.

Also take a look at the difference between getting 50 points (a good year) and 27 points (keeps you in an active status). I thought I remembered you were given 24 years to get 20 qualifying years, but can't place where I got that from. At any rate, welcome to SelRes - it can be a lot of fun.
Ah, perfect ... BUPERSINST 1001.39F has a typo, it's 10 USC 12646, not "1264G", but this section of the code states:

10 U.S. Code § 12646.Commissioned officers: retention of after completing 18 or more, but less than 20, years of service

(a) If on the date prescribed for the discharge or transfer from an active status of a reserve commissioned officer he is entitled to be credited with at least 18, but less than 19, years of service computed under section 12732 of this title, he may not be discharged or transferred from an active status under chapter 843, 1407, or 1409 of this title or chapter 21 [1] of title 14, without his consent before the earlier of the following dates—
(1) the date on which he is entitled to be credited with 20 years of service computed under section 12732 of this title; or
(2) the third anniversary of the date on which he would otherwise be discharged or transferred from an active status.

(b) If on the date prescribed for the discharge or transfer from an active status of a reserve commissioned officer he is entitled to be credited with at least 19, but less than 20, years of service computed under section 12732 of this title, he may not be discharged or transferred from an active status under chapter 843, 1407, or 1409 of this title or chapter 21 1 of title 14, without his consent before the earlier of the following dates—

(1) the date on which he is entitled to be credited with 20 years of service computed under section 12732 of this title; or
(2) the second anniversary of the date on which he would otherwise be discharged or transferred from an active status.


So, if you get to 20 years commissioned service with only 18 qualifying years, you get an extra 3 years to make up the 2 qualifying years you need. If you get to 20 with 19 qualifying years, you get an extra 2 years to get the 1. Makes sense and is fair.
 

IKE

Nerd Whirler
pilot
Keep in mind that after you pin on O4 you have another, at least, 7 years until you hit your flow point for O5 and are board eligible. You hit your flow point for O5 at the 15 - 17 years of commissioned service range.

View attachment 23020
Just like in the ADHSB thread, you've got your dates a bit off, I think because you're misunderstanding the term. "Flow Point" is the number of years of commissioned service at the time you PROMOTE, not screen, select, etc. That's why LTJG and LT are at 2 and 4 years, respectively.

I'm a classic example of typical flow points:
May '06 -- ENS (Commissioned)
May '08 -- LTJG (2 y)
Jun '10 -- LT (4 y)
Apr '15 -- O-4 board
Sep '16 -- LCDR (10 y 4 mo)
Feb '20 -- O-5 board
Sep '21 -- CDR (15 y 4 mo) (presumptive)

I know the AD URL O-5 has supposedly been "sucking" people forward a year, but I'm smack in the middle of the year group. Even if I didn't screen until 2021, that would be less than 6 years from pinning O-4 on until the O-5 board. As it is now, the typical URL folks pin O-4 ~10 years in and screen for O-5 3.5-4.5 years later (not 7).
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I know the AD URL O-5 has supposedly been "sucking" people forward a year,
Not supposedly. This has been a reality for several years. Some folks have been pulled up 2 entire Screen Groups. This is community dependent. This can be problematic if they're getting their first promotion looks before they've had a chance to earn a high water FITREP.
 

IKE

Nerd Whirler
pilot
Not supposedly. This has been a reality for several years. Some folks have been pulled up 2 entire Screen Groups. This is community dependent. This can be problematic if they're getting their first promotion looks before they've had a chance to earn a high water FITREP.
I understood the standard for O-4/5 to be screening at 5 years for promotion at ~6 years after the last promotion. This means I have been pulled up a group, which isn't surprising given attrition. But you're saying people have actually been IZ ~3 years after promoting, or that the forecast 5 years ago showed them in FY-XX, and they screened in FY-XX minus 2?

I threw in the supposedly, because many LTs claim they've been sucked up for the O-4 board when in reality they were pushed out in 2010-11, then corrected back onto a normal timing.
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
Not supposedly. This has been a reality for several years. Some folks have been pulled up 2 entire Screen Groups. This is community dependent. This can be problematic if they're getting their first promotion looks before they've had a chance to earn a high water FITREP.
Yeah, what’s the phrase, sustained superior timing? I know a few really solid guys that are looking at terminal O-4 now because they got looked at early.
 

bubblehead

Registered Member
Contributor
Not supposedly. This has been a reality for several years. Some folks have been pulled up 2 entire Screen Groups. This is community dependent. This can be problematic if they're getting their first promotion looks before they've had a chance to earn a high water FITREP.
I don't care when people are "screened." You cannot pin on O5 before 15 years commissioned service.
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
I understood the standard for O-4/5 to be screening at 5 years for promotion at ~6 years after the last promotion. This means I have been pulled up a group, which isn't surprising given attrition. But you're saying people have actually been IZ ~3 years after promoting, or that the forecast 5 years ago showed them in FY-XX, and they screened in FY-XX minus 2?
The forecast when you pin on O-4 is what you said. Reality is that when the Bubba list comes out each December, guys are getting sucked up. I don’t personally know any dudes sucked up two zones but with how wide the net is being cast, it’s inevitable.
 
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