Larger 60 Det on Amphib

[wlawr005]

-60S doesn't have GAU-17 approved by NAVAIR. It has GAU-21, but it's got stoppage issues. A typical LHD will have a shitload of Marine helos (skids, shitters, and Ospreys) along with some Harriers. The Navy sends a two helo detatchment for PMC and SAR.

 

[busdriver]

Seems to me that the GAU21 issue is a matter of not shooting enough to work out the issues, the Hueys seem to manage. I know we had the same issue with the GAU-18 years ago. Keep at it, anything 7.62 is a waste of time.

What I was getting at wrt to having some 60's on hand for SAR along with Hueys seems like a lot of redundant maintenance spares. Some cabin mounted hoists would streamline things a lot. Having two different types of medium lift helos seems like an additional logistics burden.

 

[Gatordev]

I wish I could dislike this post. There are/were ways the Navy could have saved the money but didn't want to do it. I'd argue it was more about the mission not being core competencies of the Navy rather than cost alone.

Dislike away. Obviously it's a little more complicated than just money, but there has to be a return of investment for the guy paying the bill.

-60S doesn't have GAU-17 approved by NAVAIR. It has GAU-21, but it's got stoppage issues.

I'm a little fuzzy on this, but I want to say it's a Sierra specific issue. I think they have a different/larger magazine (one that allows for a longer rate of fire which drives the very short barrel inspection period) than the Romeo. I haven't heard great lamentations about the -21 in the Romeo except when someone doesn't set the timing correctly. Does this ring a bell for anyone on the Sierra side? I swear I heard something along these lines in the last 6 months.

 

[SynixMan]

I'm a little fuzzy on this, but I want to say it's a Sierra specific issue. I think they have a different/larger magazine (one that allows for a longer rate of fire which drives the very short barrel inspection period) than the Romeo. I haven't heard great lamentations about the -21 in the Romeo except when someone doesn't set the timing correctly. Does this ring a bell for anyone on the Sierra side? I swear I heard something along these lines in the last 6 months.

Very much a thing.

 

[insanebikerboy]

Dislike away. Obviously it's a little more complicated than just money, but there has to be a return of investment for the guy paying the bill.

Yeah, just bitching as I'm obviously biased. When the DoD saved an estimated $2 billion on fuel alone this past year it does leave one scratching your head on where exactly to pinch pennies.

 

[Gatordev]

Very much a thing.

I didn't mean the timing issue, I meant the magazine issue. The R only has a 300 round magazine, but my understanding that the S has a larger capacity one which (and here's where I'm asking) might be causing the feed issues.

Obviously timing is an issue for any more complicated machine gun.

 

[Pags]

What I was getting at wrt to having some 60's on hand for SAR along with Hueys seems like a lot of redundant maintenance spares. Some cabin mounted hoists would streamline things a lot. Having two different types of medium lift helos seems like an additional logistics burden.

It is ridiculous. It comes down to mission sets. The Marines don't do SAR within the MEU. So USN provides the SAR helos. And the Marines fly H-1s and USN flies 60s. It becomes a giant pain if both 60s go down. The USMC H-1s don't train to SAR and not do they have the hover couplers that are required for night overwater hovers. I think either everyone should fly 60s or USN should supply USMC H-1s with rescue swimmers just like they do corpsman and then the MEU can do their own SAR.

 

[wlawr005]

I've never shot the -21, but I don't see how the ammo can would cause feed issues.

The -21 was designed to fire from an open bolt, unlike the -16. We had feed issues all the time with the -240, which also fired from an open bolt. They made several mods to the feed system in the -21, including one that grabs the rounds from both ends. Turns out it's just hard to put that big of a round into the chamber at those kinds of speeds. The -240 had a variable gas port that would change the rate of fire...hint, it hardly ever worked in the highest setting. If it did it would quickly get gummed up and have to be swapped. I'm unaware of such a system on the -21, which would lead me to believe that's where the problem lies.

 

[Pags]

Good point

The MEU also doesn't train towards Shooting maritime targets (not that the HSC guys really do, but they at least have a qual that days they're trained). The weapons capability of the 60 has grown and the PHIBRON side of the MEU/ARG wants a piece of it. Also, as rob notes, the departure of the 46 from theMEU left a gap in VBSS capability. Also, on my floats the MEU would use the 60 as a C2 bird because it had more radios and as over watch because it had a better flir and it could send imagery back to mom with rover.

And it's always nice to have a few extra helos who can go more than 25mi from mom.

I'm also not surprised by the 60R comment. The 60R would be a nice asset for the ARG to have if they're looking for more maritime helos. The 60S is pretty limited in a SSC/SUW role without a radar.

 

[insanebikerboy]

We had feed issues all the time with the -240, which also fired from an open bolt.

I hate to break it to you, but that may be a part user error and part a really worn gun. I've flown where we went through more than 6-7,000 rounds through the 240 in a single flight with no feed or other issues.

 

[lowflier03]

I've never shot the -21, but I don't see how the ammo can would cause feed issues.

The -21 was designed to fire from an open bolt, unlike the -16. We had feed issues all the time with the -240, which also fired from an open bolt. They made several mods to the feed system in the -21, including one that grabs the rounds from both ends. Turns out it's just hard to put that big of a round into the chamber at those kinds of speeds. The -240 had a variable gas port that would change the rate of fire...hint, it hardly ever worked in the highest setting. If it did it would quickly get gummed up and have to be swapped. I'm unaware of such a system on the -21, which would lead me to believe that's where the problem lies.

It's not the ammo can, its the feed chute. NSAWC had this problem figured out about 3+ years ago. The way the feed chute mounts on GAU-21 in the Sierra is different than on other aircraft. The Navy opted for the cheaper of the feed chute options, and given the way the chute flexes when the gun swivels it binds and causes jams. I've actually had feed chutes come apart while firing because the metal is so cheap and crappy that the tabs holding the rings of the chute together bent due to the friction of the rounds moving over them. When we tested the higher quality chutes we went from having several jams per flight to pretty much flawless operation.

 

[wlawr005]

I hate to break it to you, but that may be a part user error and part a really worn gun. I've flown where we went through more than 6-7,000 rounds through the 240 in a single flight with no feed or other issues.

Cool story bro.

It's not the ammo can, its the feed chute. NSAWC had this problem figured out about 3+ years ago. The way the feed chute mounts on GAU-21 in the Sierra is different than on other aircraft. The Navy opted for the cheaper of the feed chute options, and given the way the chute flexes when the gun swivels it binds and causes jams. I've actually had feed chutes come apart while firing because the metal is so cheap and crappy that the tabs holding the rings of the chute together bent due to the friction of the rounds moving over them. When we tested the higher quality chutes we went from having several jams per flight to pretty much flawless operation.

I noticed that on the videos where the gun was mounted on a ramp. The can was mounted to the pintle instead of the deck. Makes sense that feed chute could could bind the rounds when it has to flex in the deck mounted configuration.

 

[hscs]

Cool story bro.

Guess you are the expert on all - To insane's point - it is the human that is the weapon and if that human can prep his weapon right - whether it be a M240, GAU17, etc - they sing a beautiful, non-stop melody....

 

[Flying Low]

With only 2 60's onboard and one of those in the D. The other is not being used much due to the way we conduct/train for tactics. You can break this argument down a few different ways. Having a third allows you to work phases, flight time, etc in a much better way. If you have one in Phase then the other is 1 to make 1. That bird goes down and the heat is on the OIC because the ship still needs to meet the SAR matrix. But that is not what we are pushing, just an added benefit.

Using one in the D allows 2 for tactics. Whatever that may be. VBSS, ASUW, 240 or GAU, Hellfire, Rockets, Putting/investigating contacts in the link, streaming live video to the bridge. LHD Dets do a lot of training/HARP for deployment. Day night VBSS, a few trips to MUTC with the teams, workups with the MEU, etc. Then we actually deploy and it is "Here is your D, there are many like it but this one is yours".

We currently have the det on the IWO and will also have the KSG. The IWO det did a great job of starting to integrate with the MEU and pushing that we are more than just a SAR platform. Now it is getting not only the Marines to buy into it but Big Navy. All you need is space for 1 bird and some extra personnel.

No one cares about the 60's till they are both down. Then the sky starts falling.

 

[wlawr005]

Guess you are the expert on all - To insane's point - it is the human that is the weapon and if that human can prep his weapon right - whether it be a M240, GAU17, etc - they sing a beautiful, non-stop melody....

Haha...what exactly would you call "prepping your weapon right"? When I was shooting the -240 that would include a thorough cleaning, oiling, spare barrels, and spare gas ports. Especially when firing blanks, because they gum up the gun. Why? Because the -240 would have feed issues if you didn't. It was especially suseptible at the highest rate of fire, which was why we generally used the middle setting. You guys already apparently know all that.

As always AW, someone got an opportunity to tell someone how fucked up they are because they disagree with something someone said.