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koran
- Thread starter BigWorm
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oh well here we go again.
come ON people, just because you see two or three idiots with conflicted allegiances, don't extrapolate that to a whole category of folks. that would happen to a faulty syllogism - and the definition of prejudice. and it wouldn't be new, either.
medieval historians blamed the fall of rome on early christians, reasoning that their preoccupation with salvation and the next world made them poor citizens in this one. and let's not forget all the suspicion that has been (and, in some circles, still is) heaped on the jews for the very same thing: "oh, their group identity is so important, it comes before being good americans/frenchmen/nazis/fascists/(insert other elitist identification here)."
some people in our great country do this EVERY frickin' time we have an enemy abroad: in WW I, german-american "krauts" couldn't be trusted. don't forget sacco and vanzetti; they were shadowy italians AND communist party members, and lord knows you can't be a commie and love america, right? then in WW II we just HAD to intern those dirty japanese americans, else they might sabotage the war effort. and russian-americans - let's not even start.
i'll tell you what: out of every group mentioned above, there's a bunch that you could say are a real threat to our safety and un-american, and you'd be right. every doctrine, even and especially your most sacred, has its crazy a$$holes. as a jew, i can think of a handful of americans off the top of my head who had no qualms spying for israel AGAINST us! but to blanketly assert that "jews are generally disloyal, and probably bad servicepeople" is just flat-out racist. it just so happens that, instead of jews or germans etc., anti-islamic and anti-arab racism are chic again.
(as anti-american racism, by the way, is over there, too - you just KNOW they're saying the same thing over there: "i don't trust an american to head the UN or a humanitarian coalition, they're all imperialists.")
oh, and in case you're interested, i happen to know firsthand a michigan NROTC grad, now a submariner, who is muslim and of arab heritage. he is more mom and apple pie than you would ever believe, and if you want to call him anything, you call him "sir".
just do yourselves a favor: learn about islam from the sources - the texts, the histories, and the adherents, who are all around you. try not to get all your info from hannity, colmes, o'reilly, scarborough, savage, or all those "good" americans.
come ON people, just because you see two or three idiots with conflicted allegiances, don't extrapolate that to a whole category of folks. that would happen to a faulty syllogism - and the definition of prejudice. and it wouldn't be new, either.
medieval historians blamed the fall of rome on early christians, reasoning that their preoccupation with salvation and the next world made them poor citizens in this one. and let's not forget all the suspicion that has been (and, in some circles, still is) heaped on the jews for the very same thing: "oh, their group identity is so important, it comes before being good americans/frenchmen/nazis/fascists/(insert other elitist identification here)."
some people in our great country do this EVERY frickin' time we have an enemy abroad: in WW I, german-american "krauts" couldn't be trusted. don't forget sacco and vanzetti; they were shadowy italians AND communist party members, and lord knows you can't be a commie and love america, right? then in WW II we just HAD to intern those dirty japanese americans, else they might sabotage the war effort. and russian-americans - let's not even start.
i'll tell you what: out of every group mentioned above, there's a bunch that you could say are a real threat to our safety and un-american, and you'd be right. every doctrine, even and especially your most sacred, has its crazy a$$holes. as a jew, i can think of a handful of americans off the top of my head who had no qualms spying for israel AGAINST us! but to blanketly assert that "jews are generally disloyal, and probably bad servicepeople" is just flat-out racist. it just so happens that, instead of jews or germans etc., anti-islamic and anti-arab racism are chic again.
(as anti-american racism, by the way, is over there, too - you just KNOW they're saying the same thing over there: "i don't trust an american to head the UN or a humanitarian coalition, they're all imperialists.")
oh, and in case you're interested, i happen to know firsthand a michigan NROTC grad, now a submariner, who is muslim and of arab heritage. he is more mom and apple pie than you would ever believe, and if you want to call him anything, you call him "sir".
just do yourselves a favor: learn about islam from the sources - the texts, the histories, and the adherents, who are all around you. try not to get all your info from hannity, colmes, o'reilly, scarborough, savage, or all those "good" americans.
PS: how come when you hear about this air force translator scumbag in gitmo, it's always, "oh, he's muslim, i'm beginning to think that maybe muslims just don't have the right loyalties"? nobody's saying, "oh, he had a syrian wife, i think maybe syrian-americans just are too tied to their homeland to be really discreet." just like nobody looked at aldrich ames and said, "oh, he grew up in virginia, you know those virginians just seem to get in trouble a lot..." it's all about who's cool to trash in any given culture at any given time, people.
Ryoukai
The Chief doesn't like cheeky humor...at all
I'll betray anything for $.85...I've had my eye on that Snickers bar for quite some time now...
Oh by the way, Room, nobody cares how smart you want to appear. Stop copying and pasting things and pretending you're some kind of intellectual god, it just looks bad.
Oh by the way, Room, nobody cares how smart you want to appear. Stop copying and pasting things and pretending you're some kind of intellectual god, it just looks bad.
room, my first post on this thread wasn't nearly as long as yours, but you still seemed to miss the part where I said "not in all cases, just what's been on the news lately." I do enjoy how you like to immediately jump from point A to the assumption that I'm probably racist, or have a prejudice against muslims, especially since you don't really know anything about me (other than what's in my profile). If you did know me at all, you'd know that my best childhood friend (through high school) was muslim and his father was from Iran. Now I don't know about you, but to me that's learning about Islam from a pretty good source, but thanks so much for your Ivy League sermon. I appreciate it. I'll think about it next time I read a 5000 word-count post from you ranting about someone's basic freedoms and their right to free thought and speech, except for when that person might make a statement that you want misconstrue as racism. You know, people can comment on racial issues and not be racist. Oh, don't forget that in your case the 'cool people to trash' are anyone/everyone who might think slightly more conservatively than you, or have slightly different views. Not all of us are as uneducated and behind on current events as you think...we form our opinions all on our own just like you.
JR
BTW, in a few months you can call me 'sir,' as well.
JR
BTW, in a few months you can call me 'sir,' as well.
I'm glad I'm not the only one getting after room, Kimphil wants some schooling, I don't know much about the Q'''''' , but there is a guy that studied it extensively in arabia that just came back, he takes visitors, and will tell you anything you want to know. Look for john walker lindh in a jail in Virginia.
(I have nothing against peace and freedom loving Muslims or against the Koran [but i do enjoy getting at Kimphil])
(I have nothing against peace and freedom loving Muslims or against the Koran [but i do enjoy getting at Kimphil])
jae, i don't mean you ARE a racist, and i hope you know i got nothing but love for yuh. that's a clever tack you take on my "liberalism" tho, that it's somehow to tolerate everything but the intolerant. (even though everybody believes that whether they admit it or not.) fair enough. let's all agree that speech in any form isn't intolerant, but acting on it can be. which is why i say i KNOW you're not a racist, nor are any of the guys posting here, but the argument you make is the starting point of a rationalization for discrimination. go back to history's scapegoats. i'm glad you don't intend it that way, but some people invariably will.
and bro, ivy league doesn't even enter into it; you and i have had that discussion before, and let me get this out there: i didn't enjoy my school, i was in fact disgusted and isolated cuz i was surrounded by idiot pseudoleftist 18 year olds (i KNOW! ME, pissed at surrender monkeys?!), and i'm bitter cuz i'm out a pretty penny. i know lotsa public and private school guys - yourself included - who are easily as bright and insightful as me, and in the end all i've got that the rest of these folks don't is a debt burden that burns my ass.
sorry again (to you, at least) for the length of my diatribes.
and bro, ivy league doesn't even enter into it; you and i have had that discussion before, and let me get this out there: i didn't enjoy my school, i was in fact disgusted and isolated cuz i was surrounded by idiot pseudoleftist 18 year olds (i KNOW! ME, pissed at surrender monkeys?!), and i'm bitter cuz i'm out a pretty penny. i know lotsa public and private school guys - yourself included - who are easily as bright and insightful as me, and in the end all i've got that the rest of these folks don't is a debt burden that burns my ass.
sorry again (to you, at least) for the length of my diatribes.
hey that's ironic daedalus, we've got a lot in common.
i dunno much about the bible but there is a guy who studied it extensively in the heart of upstate ny, solidly religious territory, after his hero's return from the gulf war. he didn't just learn it by itself, he consulted with other devotees and read the books they suggested. he learned that christianity, properly understood, has very real implications for our society and the way it's structured. he was very soft-spoken but open to sharing his ideas, but he's kind of hard to get to since '01. his name was tim mcveigh. guess that's all i need to know about that religion.
i dunno much about the bible but there is a guy who studied it extensively in the heart of upstate ny, solidly religious territory, after his hero's return from the gulf war. he didn't just learn it by itself, he consulted with other devotees and read the books they suggested. he learned that christianity, properly understood, has very real implications for our society and the way it's structured. he was very soft-spoken but open to sharing his ideas, but he's kind of hard to get to since '01. his name was tim mcveigh. guess that's all i need to know about that religion.
Hey Room,
I'm a surrender monkey with a cause! I not a peacenik, I just ask for a legit rationale for the use of force. I never thought the President produced a good case for the War in Iraq, and in hindsight, I was right.
My sarcastic comments about betraying one's country for money was to point out that people in government betray the trust they're given for a variety of reasons, not just religious. Money's a usual motivation, but as the recent blow-up about "outing" of Joe Wilson's wife as a CIA operative (illegal thanks to Bush 41) by senior White House officials to the so called "liberal" media for political retribution shows, even "good" Americans are willing to flout the law. The fact that multiple leaks appeared to have occured, I can make a simplistic argument that Republicans can't be trusted to maintain secrecy using the same simplistic argument that is being made to point out that Muslims may appear untrustworthy as members of the military.
Daedalus, I was just hoping you could school me in the politics of Islam like you "schooled" me in economics. I'm perfectly willing to defer to your superior knowledge.
I'm a surrender monkey with a cause! I not a peacenik, I just ask for a legit rationale for the use of force. I never thought the President produced a good case for the War in Iraq, and in hindsight, I was right.
My sarcastic comments about betraying one's country for money was to point out that people in government betray the trust they're given for a variety of reasons, not just religious. Money's a usual motivation, but as the recent blow-up about "outing" of Joe Wilson's wife as a CIA operative (illegal thanks to Bush 41) by senior White House officials to the so called "liberal" media for political retribution shows, even "good" Americans are willing to flout the law. The fact that multiple leaks appeared to have occured, I can make a simplistic argument that Republicans can't be trusted to maintain secrecy using the same simplistic argument that is being made to point out that Muslims may appear untrustworthy as members of the military.
Daedalus, I was just hoping you could school me in the politics of Islam like you "schooled" me in economics. I'm perfectly willing to defer to your superior knowledge.
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