I'm not sure where to start. Is it too late?

[T33]

I was unique in that my GPA was so bad. I applied 4 times to USNA. My first application (while I was still in high school) was laughed out of the admissions board, of that I'm certain. The laughter slowly subsided until they realized I was serious.

I had a lot of classmates that were prior enlisted, who didn't have a GPA as high as yours, that were accepted on their first try. For prior enlisted guys, they are looking at your military performance first, then your SAT/ACT, and your HS GPA is only icing on the cake. Hence why I could get in with a 1.96 GPA (I did have to go to a semester at a civilian college and get a better GPA).


I personally think it was worth it. Not because of the bennie of it being on my resume (and yes, it is a bennie), not because of the prestige - but for two reasons. My father is USNA '63, and I've always looked up to him. In one small way, I was able to follow in his footsteps. Also, because the friends I made there are still my friends to this day. Not that it won't happen in a civilian school, but because everyone goes into the military, the chances of you running into them again is very good. Again, had I gone to a civilian school, I probably wouldn't have graduated because I hated college and didn't go to class unless ordered.

If you do go as a prior (and this is what I told one of my crewchiefs who left the squadron to go to USNA), you have to realize it is NOTHING like the fleet. First, you'll get yelled at/shit on by someone who's younger than you/less life experience than you. It's important to realize that he is LEARNING how to lead, and if you play your part - you're helping him LEARN. Priors that don't realize that are the ones that get the "prior stink" on them.

Oh, and this may sound ridiculous - but generally STA-21 is more competitive than USNA. Why? Because so few actually think to apply to USNA... I would argue that most sailors know about STA-21, unless they've met a USNA grad, a good chunk of sailors don't even know USNA exists.

Thanks. I will definitely take everything that you have said into consideration.
Hopefully my professional resume stands out. And I can get some good recommendations.
Like I said, glad I found this forum, everyone at work had no clue and no answers. Haha.
Oh and about my question, I don't take the ACT 'til June. Will it be too late to apply when I get my scores back? My previous scores are outdated.

 

[ReconJos]

It will not be too late for you to apply to the class of 2017 when your June ACT scores come back. Your application completion deadline won't be until early 2013, so you'll have plenty of time after receiving your scores. What I'd do in the interim is head over to the USNA webpage (the link phrogpilot included in a previous post), fill out a pre candidate questionnaire (http://www.usna.edu/Admissions/preapplication/; lets them know you're interested and gets the ball rolling on the application process) and start chipping away at ALL the other requirements (there are a lot). That way when you do get your ACT scores, you can complete your application. Since USNA uses a rolling admissions process, the earlier you get your application completed, the earlier you stand a chance of your application being reviewed by the admissions board and you getting some news back from them.

 

[T33]

It will not be too late for you to apply to the class of 2017 when your June ACT scores come back. Your application completion deadline won't be until early 2013, so you'll have plenty of time after receiving your scores. What I'd do in the interim is head over to the USNA webpage (the link phrogpilot included in a previous post), fill out a pre candidate questionnaire (http://www.usna.edu/Admissions/preapplication/; lets them know you're interested and gets the ball rolling on the application process) and start chipping away at ALL the other requirements (there are a lot). That way when you do get your ACT scores, you can complete your application. Since USNA uses a rolling admissions process, the earlier you get your application completed, the earlier you stand a chance of your application being reviewed by the admissions board and you getting some news back from them.

Thanks a lot. Very much appreciated.

 

[sodajones]

As for your HS GPA, you should be OK. Put it this way - I had a 1.96 GPA in HS, 1200 on the SATs, am a prior enlisted Marine - and graduated from the Naval Academy.

As for no prior college, when you apply as a prior enlisted guy to USNA - you're competing against other prior enlisted guys only. You're not competing against the entire mass of high schoolers that want to attend. There are 85 slots reserved for AD and 85 slots reserved for Reservists for every class that enters. Of the 170 total possible, my class had 105. They routinely go unfilled.

F my life.

If I had known that a few years ago....

 

[Uncle Fester]

Four years of propaganda? No, not at all, and that's not what I said. Just that what people outside USNA think they know about it, pro and con is almost universally wrong.

I got a quality, free education out of it, not to mention a great job. It wasn't the right school for me, for a lot of boring reasons. There are a lot of routes to getting a commission, and you shouldn't discount any of them without investigating.

 

[T33]

So what are the pros and cons of the Academy?

And what are the pros and cons of going sta-21 or going to the Academy?

 

[koolaiddrinker]

So what are the pros and cons of the Academy?

And what are the pros and cons of going sta-21 or going to the Academy?

Pros:

-I would echo the friends comment. I didn't go to a real college, so I don't have a comparison. I do know that in flight school when I walked into the O-Club I was among many classmates where other guys were the only FSU/Boston College/etc grad there (to some this might not be a pro). I would not trade my USNA friends for anything now, 15 years later. There has been a classmate everywhere in the world I have been stationed and, like family, whether you were buds or not at Canoe U, I think it would be unusual not to be welcomed with open arms anywhere you go.

-When you start networking later in your career, looking for a civilian job, the grad network can help you out. It is a small consideration now, but the alumni are widely dispersed in corporate America and often job being a grad is enough to get your resume passed on.

-USNA is very regimented. If you need that, it is a good thing. I remember a conversation when I was pulling "D's" in several classes sophomore year when my company officer (USMC Captain) asked me whether I wanted to be a lacrosse player or a naval officer. I'm not sure if that conversation would have happened at a civilian school or whether I would have gotten my act together on my own.

-USNA professors don't "have" to do research like many schools, so their emphasis is on teaching. You will not be taught by grad students like at many other schools.

Cons:
-I think that the military stuff was a distraction from the academics. I don't think that the academics deserve the great reputation that they get, necessarily. The school specializes in turning out grads every 4 years and I think that effort, at times, (admittedly in my case) is rewarded over actually understanding the material. I learned about time management, I learned that asking for extra instruction trumped being smart, but I'm not sure the emphasis was very much on academic learning. Of course, the Academy's main product is naval officers, not grad students, so this, I think is a difference from civilian schools who have an incentive to keep guys in school.

-The priors (I am not one) seemed really frustrated at being bossed around by the upperclass (many of whom will be younger than you and with no military experience other than USNA) and having rules like no dating/drinking/civilian clothes. On the other hand, the priors get looked at to lead a lot early on.

-No matter where you go, it will be rough jumping back into academics. I felt the same way going back to grad school when you haven't exercised your brain in that way for a while. At USNA, you're going to experience that while being immersed in military culture (drill, formation, inspections).

-I think, (rusty on this, so check it out for yourself) your time counts toward retirement while STA-21 and you still get paid, unlike the Academy. Of course, I think more expenses are covered at USNA, but you should do the research and see what the financial differences are.

Overall, I think to succeed at USNA YOU have to find value in going there. Not just because you get the ring, but because you admire the tradition, you're looking to spend the rest of your career with the guys you went to college with, you think Annapolis is a cool place, whatever because the place frustrates everyone. It is also another course to a commission and those programs are competitive so why not give it a shot? If you get offered a choice, then you can stress which one is a better fit.

I've been on a lot of boards for STA-21/Academy, so here's some unsolicited advice. The #1 fail question is, "Why do you want to be an officer?" (ok I never failed anybody, but for an obvious question few people are ready to answer it). Most people describe a CPO when you ask them about being an officer, because that is what they know well. Spend some time talking to your Div O (or others) and understand what the differences really are. CPO's lead too and make a difference in Sailors lives. Make sure that you know why you want to be an officer (both for the interview and just because you're about to embark on a whole lot of pain). In my opinion, any way you get the commission the pain is worth it. But, you'll need to know when you're in the middle of it why you're doing it.

Good luck!

 

[phrogpilot73]

...because the place frustrates everyone.

Amen brother! As my dad used to tell me during the dark days: "It's a great place to be... from."

Pros:
-Friends. Hands down. I've had friends/classmates I hadn't seen or talked to for years open up their house to me, so I had someplace to live while looking for a house at a new duty station (one of them was a guy I did not know at USNA, only knew from TBS). I've opened up my house for friends/classmates as well. I've got a classmate who's working on starting his own business (and two others that already have) - and he's giving me one of his products for free to evaluate/get the word out he makes a quality product. I've bought the other two classmates products and they have both asked me to provide honest feedback, and I have. Not to mention, once you finish plebe summer - you're a member of the class. Period. I had a classmate that had to leave during Youngster year for medical reasons - and he wanted to come for the 10 year reunion. He was welcomed with open arms. Not saying that you DON'T make friends like that at a civilian school, but your chances of living near them after graduation are slimmer than our chances.

-Small class sizes. When I went to civilian college, I had classes with 100+ people in them. The LARGEST class I had at USNA was about 35-40 people. And it seemed huge, since some of my classes only had 15-20 in them. The student to faculty ratio is something ridiculous like 12 to 1.

-Military instructors. It may not seem like a bennie - but as you're struggling through <insert class outside your major here> and you're questioning why you have to take it since you're just going to be a military officer, having a military instructor helps. On more than one occasion, I had a military instructor relate the material we were learning to what he had experienced in the military. Some were better than others, mind you...

-Company officers/Instructors from across all specialties in the Navy/Marine Corps. You have the opportunity to learn about EVERY community the Navy/Marine Corps has to offer and can make a better educated decision. If you go STA-21, you're going to be commissioned in the Navy. If you go to USNA, you could find out that you'd rather be a Marine - and you can do that. I had a buddy from high school that was class of '95, and his dad was a Marine, so he showed up expecting to go Marine Corps. But he went in with an open mind, and although he could select anything he wanted (he was number two in his class), he wanted to be a SWO. I can only imagine the discussion "Hey LT, your name sounds familiar. Do you have any relatives in the military?" "Yes, my dad is the Commandant of the Marine Corps."

-Summers. I don't know if STA-21 guys do summer training like ROTC/USNA, but those two months each summer that we did was awesome. Not only because it again gave us a better idea of what we wanted to do post USNA, but what college students gets to navigate a ship into NYC Harbor, one of the busiest in the world? What college student gets to fly a T-34 on the government dime? What college student gets a ride in a F/A-18? Shoot the main gun of an M1A1 Abrams MBT? I could go on and on, but I think you get the point...

-Being prior enlisted. It's a small, tight knit group of guys at USNA. It's smaller and MORE tight knit among the Marine priors, but every prior knows every other prior in their class. As long as you realize it's not the real military and play the game to the best of your ability - it will be one of the most rewarding experiences in your life.

-Also echoing the networking statement. My first job interview leaving active duty with my future manager went something like this: "You're a Naval Academy grad and Marine Officer. Are you going to move down to Pax or commute from Odenton?"

-Friendly rivalry/respect among other service academies. Playing tricks on Woops leading up to the Army/Navy game - then getting shit-housed drunk with them after the game, because after all - we're on the same team. You show me another school rivalry that works that way. We were involved in a JTAC study at work, and the head dude and I were talking. I noticed he was wearing a ring, and asked about it. West Point, class of '79. "Beat Army" was my reply, then we chit-chatted about our lives/careers at USNA/USMA in the military, and post. It's like the world's largest fraternity...

Cons:
-It's been said before, but there's no way to describe just how bad that place sucks while you're there. My Dad is class of '63, and he told me that they used to joke that you could turn off the car prior to Oh-Shit hill and the Naval Academy sucked so bad, it would suck you back there. What is Oh-Shit hill? It's a hill near USNA, that as you crest it - you can see the entire yard in one (now that I've graduated) spectacular view. Your response as a mid returning from liberty/leave... "Oh, Shit." Restrictions on drinking (no more restrictions on dating), liberty, mando-fun, Forrestal briefs, civvies, music, kick in the nuts (for some) academics, etc - take what could be an epic college experience and make it the Naval Academy. Not to mention if you break the rules and get caught, you can be put on restriction, which is its own special form of hell. I spent 30 days on restriction during Christmas break my 1/c year. It sucked.

-Being prior enlisted. Yes, it is a pro and con - and the only thing that can push it from the con to the pro category is your attitude. You know that it is nothing like the fleet, you have a bunch of guys that are younger than you who only know USNA shitting all over you (like the fuckstick from another company that tried to be "big man" and shit all over me, telling me that I didn't know shit about Navy/Marine Corps aviation - even though I had come to USNA from a Marine Corps F/A-18 squadron). It's a game/leadership laboratory, and you need to play the game. Why? Because that fuckstick is learning, and if you resist - you're not helping him learn. The other part is, you're going to have to overcome the "prior attitude". You may not be showing one, but a shit-ton of people before you did, so they assume you're going to. You can overcome that during plebe year.

-Academics. If you've been out of school for a couple years, or if you never took school very seriously to begin with, PRAY that they send you to NAPS. It's been said in the past, but I had a 1.96 GPA in high school. Somehow I slipped through the cracks and DIDN'T go to NAPS. The first year at USNA was a complete and total kick in the nuts. I had a 1.65 at the end of it, and was fairly certain I wasn't going to be returning... The Academic Board showed mercy on me, and once I got in my major - I was set. I would agree that they aren't as high quality as they make them out to be (to this day, I have NO IDEA what I learned in Naval Architecture except "Lower Kg" and yet I still got a B), effort counts more than knowing the material sometimes at that school (although I never saw that in my major's classes).

-Time at USNA doesn't count towards retirement. I have buddies that did PLC. His time in college post seniors counts toward retirement, mine does not. WTF?!?

-Did I mention it's going to be a four year suckfest?

Looking back, if I was a young guy - I would say that the cons outweigh the pros. However, I can also say that I would not chance a single second of my life. USNA was the perfect fit for me. It's not a perfect fit for everybody. I would also say that you don't want to go in blind. You can probably talk to the fleet enlisted coordinator, take some leave, and get a plebe to drag you around for the weekend... I know we would do it for HS studs, I don't see why it can't be done for a prior. It's eye opening to see Mother B/King Hall/Classrooms/LIFE from the inside...

 

[PhrogLoop]

So what are the pros and cons of the Academy?

And what are the pros and cons of going sta-21 or going to the Academy?

Don't forget that these questions (very popular ones on this site and worth another search) are extremely subjective. What are your priorities? Graduating/commissioning ASAP? Flight school prospects? Specific athletics? Specific major?

For instance, I chose USNA (right out of HS) because:
1. USNA was my all time first choice from childhood
2. the structure that would force me to attend class and graduate in 4 years
3. at the time there were more pilot slots than qualified applicants from USNA (pre-lasik/PRK waivers)

But choosing Political Science as a major was more of an afterthought because it seemed like the most interesting major there that wouldn't keep me up late studying with 23 hour semesters into my junior and senior years. If studying Political Science was my top priority above all else, I would have gone to Princeton or Duke and considered ROTC or OCS as my way into flight school. Why? Because my Bachelor of Science in Political Science was not nearly as in-depth as a Bachelor of Arts in Political Science from Princeton or Duke. The USNA core curriculum (Calc I/II/III, Probs and Stats, Chem, Physics, Electrical Engineering for Dummies, Thermodynamics, Naval Leadership etc.) doesn't leave a lot of room for upper-level courses in a liberal arts major.

So think about what you're looking for in a college/commissioning experience and do your homework, so to speak, because you have lots of time to make the right choice. Good luck!

 

[T33]

Thanks for all the input. I've always wanted to have the Academy in my background and resume. And I can kind of get a hint of how it might be. Good thing I'm a humble person and I can put swallow my pride. Hopefully me being a prior isn't that bad. Being an officer is my goal so hopefully nothin will come in between that.

Thanks again you guys hopefully my package is strong enough.

 

[ProsNest1]

I'll add on to "friends/contacts for life" as a pro for USNA. Immediately after I took my squadron on deployment I inherited a small diplomatic issue with some USN folks in a foreign county without the correct documentation (although they were there on official business.) Resolving the problem was bogging down in red tape when I recognized a name at the embassy as a classmate. A direct call, some USNA reminiscing, a reminder on proper entry messages, and all was concluded. Bottom line: you become programmed to do just about anything to help out a classmate - and that sticks with you.

The four-year "suckfest" con is subjective and does not characterize my experience. Once I switched to a major that got me off academic probation, I found that I had a considerable amount of free time to at least (partially) enjoy a college experience.

Best of luck in whatever path you choose!

 

[Uncle Fester]

Likewise. I was stuck with my crew on an unplanned divert ashore. The people at the BOQ desk were being assholes about not calling ahead before arrival. While the CAPC was turning shades of purple trying to get them to understand the situation ("Goddammit, we didn't know we were coming here until our left engine quit! We were on the Boat an hour ago!"), I noticed that one of my company mates was the Chop-in-Charge of the area BOQs. One phone call and magically all was fixed.

One of the unquestioend benefits of being a Boat Schooler is you're never totally a stranger anywhere you go in the Navy. At most you're one degree of seperation from half the people in the wardroom/ready room. Eventually everyone gets there, but always having a couch to crash on or a car to borrow when you're in a new town as an Ensign is nice.

USNA is, objectively, a good school. The profs and facilities are great, low student-to-faculty ratio, plenty of extra-curricular opportunities, and you'll leave with a guaranteed job and no student debt. Whether it's a good school for you, no one here can tell you.

It wasn't the right school for me. I'm a math rock, hate jogging, and tend to do better academically with less structure. Don't get me wrong; it's my own fault that I didn't do better than middlin', but c'est la vie.

To be fair, I graduated probably 40 pounds lighter than I would have at a 'real' college.

 

[Fog]

Likewise. I was stuck with my crew on an unplanned divert ashore. The people at the BOQ desk were being assholes about not calling ahead before arrival. . . . . I noticed that one of my company mates was the Chop-in-Charge of the area BOQs. One phone call and magically all was fixed. . . One of the unquestioend benefits of being a Boat Schooler is you're never totally a stranger anywhere you go in the Navy."

The other & unspoken half of your observation is that it's a crap world where you have to pull old school ties to get the level of service you deserved & expected all along . . .

 

[A.war.IN.me]

@T33 since you're a prior, do you still have to go through plebe summer?

 

[T33]

I would assume so...I believe everyone goes through it. I guess since I don't know, I should probably check up on that.