IFR training

[JP5MN]

Hello to al! My son is working on a PPL and will solo this week. He is a high school junior, looking at AFROTC or NROTC, wants to apply for UPT/SNA in ROTC. My son wants to work on IFR after he gets his PPL. My question to the community here is:
1-Do the UPT/SNA selection boards look at prior training? I have heard 41 hours is the max that counts on the AF PCSM score.
2-Is it better for a prospective pilot/aviator to have the Air Force or Navy train IFR their way so they don’t have to break any bad habits the student has?

 

[FormerRecruitingGuru]

Hello to al! My son is working on a PPL and will solo this week. He is a high school junior, looking at AFROTC or NROTC, wants to apply for UPT/SNA in ROTC. My son wants to work on IFR after he gets his PPL. My question to the community here is:
1-Do the UPT/SNA selection boards look at prior training? I have heard 41 hours is the max that counts on the AF PCSM score.
2-Is it better for a prospective pilot/aviator to have the Air Force or Navy train IFR their way so they don’t have to break any bad habits the student has?

Any sort of previous / current civilian flight training weights little to none for Navy ROTC and OCS selection boards.

Strongly encourage your son focus more on academics including SAT / ACT as a means to get into NROTC. Extra curricular activities including sports, community service, clubs, etc. can go a longer way than flight time.

Once in NROTC, similarly, strongly suggest he focus on the academics side and doing well on the ASTB exam.

The actual naval aviators can weigh in here but from my observations civilian flight time offers little “benefit” for military flight training.

 

[Hopeful Hoya]

For the Navy at least, prior civilian time doesn't really matter for selection. Once you get to flight school I believe they will waive certain events based on your prior training, which boosts your NSS (the score that factors into what platform you eventually select).

I would say there's a big difference between showing up with a PPL and an instrument card. Instrument flying is pretty much the same in the military world as the civilian world, and the reps you get before showing up for flight school will help build your spatial awareness and familiarity with the procedures, which is probably the toughest part of flight school besides the basic stick monkey skills.

 

[MGoBrew11]

As mentioned, probably meaningless as it pertains to getting selected for a program.

@Hopeful Hoya is probably right that just having flight time in general will help your son out in flight school compared to his peers.

No matter what, I don’t think it will hurt to get an instrument rating. Theoretically if money were not a factor I think the more qualifications and experience, the better (yes, realistically money always is a factor). I used to buy into the whole “don’t learn bad habits” from the outside world thing when I was a young, dumb SNA perusing this site.

Having been an instructor now, the students that had significant flight experience prior to the Navy were recognizable and had a leg up in my opinion.

 

[KODAK]

I have no idea what selection boards look for - and frankly would love to know in order to examine whether those factors actually correlate to future success as an aviator - but as a current Primary IP I think that your second question is relatively straightforward. Civilian flight time, particularly an instrument rating, will absolutely help your son when training to become a Naval Aviator. The ability to read an approach plate, communicate efficiently and succinctly over the radio, and the overall confidence it brings are invaluable. For the record I’ve always thought that the best pilot would learn to fly gliders first, then earn a PPL/ instrument ticket with a tailwheel endorsement and forms exposure in there somewhere.

For the longest time some in Naval Aviation have repeatedly stated that candidates should stay away from general aviation for fear of learning “bad habits”; from my albeit limited experience thus far, I have yet to be able to understand this particular line of logic.. Sure: if you cannot stand to ‘learn it again’ a different way then perhaps wait for the Navy to train you, but any additional ‘reps’ you can gain in the civilian world are always helpful. As per normal, “it depends” and everyone is different. But if I could do things again I would have gotten my instrument ticket before Primary.

Oh and if life allows it, I highly recommend Navy OCS - he can apply for pilot (and pilot only..) which is a powerful plus, as compared to the way USNA/ NROTC doles out slots in the various warfare communities. Just one man’s perspective!

 

[MGoBrew11]

I can only imagine/assume the “bad habits” myth was a result of a few SNAs with a lot of civilian time that had bad attitudes and thought they knew it all.

I saw that once or twice. Most of the PPL guys I saw crushed the rest of us in the syllabus.

The reason I don’t think it’s much of a factor in selection to commissioning programs (and nor should it be), is that although it gives people an early advantage in primary, don’t think anyone can tell/know/cares by the time they make it in the fleet.

 

[KODAK]

There was an Ensign who went through Primary with me way back in the year 2015 who had been a regional airline captain. He went on to DOR in contacts. “I can’t be a student again” was his excuse for quitting - don’t let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.. This job is all about being a student and learning something new daily! So I definitely think that attitude matters more than aptitude early on. Be a sponge and soak it all up.

As another aside, if I could do it again I wouldn’t tell a soul if I had prior flight experience. No one cares, and you will be measured against a different standard if you brag about or flaunt it. I recommend go out and get the knowledge but keep it to yourself.

 

[MGoBrew11]

Don’t lie if an instructor asks you. But yeah, agree with the gist of that.

 

[MIDNJAC]

There was an Ensign who went through Primary with me way back in the year 2015 who had been a regional airline captain. He went on to DOR in contacts. “I can’t be a student again” was his excuse for quitting - don’t let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.. This job is all about being a student and learning something new daily! So I definitely think that attitude matters more than aptitude early on. Be a sponge and soak it all up.

As another aside, if I could do it again I wouldn’t tell a soul if I had prior flight experience. No one cares, and you will be measured against a different standard if you brag about or flaunt it. I recommend go out and get the knowledge but keep it to yourself.

Assuming he went back to the regionals, it must have been a long road for him to the majors (or at least successfully completing a training program at a major). Same shit. Back to FNG/student.

 

[FLGUY]

There was an Ensign who went through Primary with me way back in the year 2015 who had been a regional airline captain. He went on to DOR in contacts. “I can’t be a student again” was his excuse for quitting - don’t let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.. This job is all about being a student and learning something new daily! So I definitely think that attitude matters more than aptitude early on. Be a sponge and soak it all up.

As another aside, if I could do it again I wouldn’t tell a soul if I had prior flight experience. No one cares, and you will be measured against a different standard if you brag about or flaunt it. I recommend go out and get the knowledge but keep it to yourself.

That’s strange since that guy was in the airline industry, where you literally have to become a student again every time you upgrade/change aircraft/change airlines. Learning never stops.

 

[HuggyU2]

My perspective based on my Air Force background...

If he has the time and money to go get a bunch of instrument time, I'd encourage him to consider spending more of that money on aerobatic, tailwheel and/or glider flying.

Sure... get some time on instruments so as to become familiar and capable. But he military will teach you "their way" to fly instruments. There's a lot more to flying than "instruments", and the skill sets acquired in an aerobatic aircraft (even better if it's a taildragger like a Decathlon) are valuable.

I believe aerobatic/tailwheel/glider flying will be a better group of skill sets to prepare for success. Others will likely disagree.

 

[FLGUY]

My perspective based on my Air Force background...

If he has the time and money to go get a bunch of instrument time, I'd encourage him to consider spending more of that money on aerobatic, tailwheel and/or glider flying.

Sure... get some time on instruments so as to become familiar and capable. But he military will teach you "their way" to fly instruments. There's a lot more to flying than "instruments", and the skill sets acquired in an aerobatic aircraft (even better if it's a taildragger like a Decathlon) are valuable.

I believe aerobatic/tailwheel/glider flying will be a better group of skill sets to prepare for success. Others will likely disagree.

My 2 cents:
If his goal is to maximize Military flight school performance benefits via pre-military civilian flying, I personally think the transferability of instrument flying is more applicable. The instrument phase of primary is debatably the most important phase in flight school to crush in order to maximize your NSS.

Sure, the concepts taught during aerobatic flying or glider flying helps with things like energy management skills and air work, and those skills may even be a better long term investment for one’s skills as a pilot, but those may not necessarily manifest in the T-6 as clearly as some instrument training would.

Flight school is partly a game, and doing everything you can to set yourself up for success (that doesn’t involve breaking any rules) should be prioritized.

 

[HuggyU2]

FLGUY, your comments are valid. My caveat is that I'm looking at it from an AF perspective... and I don't believe we score students the same way that y'all do on the NSS.

AF UPT is changing rapidly... so maybe my info is dated... but instrument scores weren't the more important aspect to T-6 flying. More emphasis is (or used to be) placed on VMC MOA work and VFR patterns.

 

[MIDNJAC]

I don't know if it's still the same now, but as a prior commercial certificated IR pilot in the FAA's eyes, I made my money in primary during BI/RI's. I'm pretty sure crushing those stages is why I had a big NSS and was able to get jets. I'm not a smart man, and it took a long time for the actual jet lightbulb to turn on (probably partway through the FRS if I'm being honest), though ultimately I think I succeeded. To @HuggyU2's point, it wasn't that I didn't do well in PAs (I did, and many were non graded anyway), but that seemed to comparatively be a small block. And FAMs (or whatever primary calls it) was kinda a wash since those are your first flights in that specific airplane. My landings weren't bad then, and I could talk on the radio, so I probably did fine there too.

 

[FLGUY]

FLGUY, your comments are valid. My caveat is that I'm looking at it from an AF perspective... and I don't believe we score students the same way that y'all do on the NSS.

AF UPT is changing rapidly... so maybe my info is dated... but instrument scores weren't the more important aspect to T-6 flying. More emphasis is (or used to be) placed on VMC MOA work and VFR patterns.

The early stage contact flights (VFR) are just as important as the early stage instrument flights for us. You also bring up valid points, I’m just purely speaking to a “back for your buck” mindset for the student’s grades.